All right, Kareem, mate. Welcome to the podcast. How you doing? Pretty good, man. Happy to be here. Happy to finally get on a podcast. Yeah It has actually you've been how long have you been, uh training with rubbing muscle it's over two years at this point, right? Yeah, I think I I tore my achilles in 2021 And I think I linked up with you That summer as I was getting ready to get back on the field. So About two years now two and a half years. Yeah full 2021. It seemed I think that's when we we first linked up So that's cool. Let's um start by going completely All the way back to your background So I know you had a quite strong athletic background before you even got into rugby and thus you got into rugby quite late So if you can give us a reasonably detailed but fast whistle stop tour of of your journey so far. Okay. Well, I have a track and field background. I ran track in college. I also actually let me back up. Sorry. Um, I started college as a soccer player, football as a footballer. Actually, um, that didn't really work out. I wasn't in the mindset to be a footballer anymore, I think. And then eventually I transferred to University of Kansas and ran track. I'd already been running track for my entire life. I ran AAU track as an eight, as, as young as eight years old. So I have a pretty strong track and field background. I ran at KU for two years due to some eligibility stuff. Um, not academically in a sense that I wasn't good at school. It was just transfer credits and stuff like that. And then, um, after I graduated, um, I ran with the Virgin Islands national team for two years. Uh, so that took me into like 2014. And then, um, I tried to qualify for the Olympics, didn't get it, failed at it, or whatever, um, and then just decided to kind of move on from track and, um, picked up rugby in 2016 when I realized I still like to compete and wanted to compete in something a little bit different as a, other than track and field. So I've been, I've been around, you know, high level sport for a while now. I think much of my adult life, certainly much of my adult life, and even as a kid, I always played. grade levels above where I was. So I've always been, you know, pretty, pretty athletic and whatnot. And like high performance mindset. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even, even like when I was in the military, everything that I wanted to do was, you know, high performance, high level, um, track and field, it was always high performance, high level soccer was going to, you know, development camps and getting invited to camps out of the, I got invited to camps in England, I got invited to camps in Australia, China, I couldn't always go. My parents couldn't afford to send me, but um, at least I knew that I was being considered in, you know, with some of those other kids who were really good, so. So, you said, uh, your head wasn't quite right for soccer. Is that because the environment wasn't right for you, or something about the way you were playing, or you felt at the time, anything like that? It was. It was for me. I think I, when I was younger, I definitely had the mindset of, uh, if you weren't good at something, you just, that was it. You weren't good at it. Um, I didn't realize at the time that if I wasn't good at something that I could just work at it and get better. Um, I had a lot of natural ability already. I was always, especially when it come to come to footy, I was always faster than everybody. I was always more aggressive, just wanting to be around the ball. And because of that, I was around the ball. But as I got into higher levels and I needed that technical ability, that IQ, uh, ability or whatever. Uh, I just didn't have the patience to work on the craft, um, until I was a little bit older. When I got into rugby, later on in my sprint career, when I was, when I had the mindset and the more of the patience, that's when I kind of was like, okay, I'm not good at it today, but I can be good at it six months from now, six weeks from now. And I kind of got the mindset where I was, I could work on this. Back when I first got into college playing soccer, I didn't have that mindset at all, not even close. What then led to the transfer to track? Was it just that these, the coaches from track saw you play football and then were like, Oh, this, we need to get this guy in or? Nah, well, I ran track and I played soccer. So, um, like I went to two different high schools and in high school, when I was in high school, my dad was in the military. So I started my, um, My freshman and sophomore year, I would play soccer in the fall and run track in the spring. Right, because they're different seasons. Right. Um, when I moved to Georgia and I graduated high school in Augusta, Georgia, track and soccer were actually in the same season, so I was just doing both. I just did them both. Um, and my coaches knew. My coaches were fine with it. They, you know, as long as you're not, you know, you're not, you know, going to overextend myself or like hurt the team. I was a better, I was a better, in my opinion, at the time I was a better soccer player, or I wanted to be a better soccer player than I was a runner. And so I put more time into soccer when I probably could have put more time into track. I don't know. I decided it's 2020, but I did both. So my whole life I just did both. So I really had my pick when I got recruited for track and field as well as soccer. I could have went to a number of colleges to run track. I had the times to do it, but I chose to play soccer instead. And then you said you were, uh, trying to apply for, apply, try to qualify for the Olympics. Um, was that through Grenada? That was through the Virgin Islands. So I was, I was actually born in the Virgin Islands. My mom was from Grenada. So I was born in the Virgin Islands. My mom's from Grenada. And I went back to Grenada as a kid for a very short, short period of time. And then I moved to the United States. So when it came time to represent for sports, I just kind of naturally chose the Virgin Islands because that's the one I thought I was only eligible for. I didn't know about the eligibility rules as far as, you know, how far back your heritage can go. I thought if, you know, you just had to be born there. So those are representative. They they're actually, they don't want to kind of came to me and we're like, Hey, we need sprinters. Like we, we didn't even know you were out here like that. Like. They came to me and were like, we need sprinters, we'll see what you, what you got. And I was kind of like, that actually was an interesting environment because that was an environment where I was literally around, um, the top like one and a half, like two, like one percent of the sprinters in the world. Like, my, the guys that I was teammates with, this guy was a a national record holder in the Virgin Islands. Uh, I was training with people who were qualifying for the Olympics and going to that stage and, uh, Meddling in the Olympics. So that was a really cool environment to be in for In 2012. It was challenging. It was it really, um, it really introduced me to the professional side of like being an athlete And it was much harder than I thought it was but it was also much more, uh, much more rewarding than I thought Yeah, I think professional track and field very similar to rugby a lot of sports really where it's like You've got this top tier that can make good money, but like only at the very top. And then below, below that, there's a big chunk of very passionate, very hardworking, but not overly financially supported athletes that still will dedicate a full time effort without not necessarily having a, maybe having a full time wage, but not what we would call like a good wage, not what most people would have in their head. When they think a professional athlete, um, is that what you experienced when you were there? True. And I think that's part of the reason why, like, after 2012, I was like, I'm not, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. The financial expenditure and like the physical toll of it to travel, you know, you have to, you have to pay on registration for your own travel, own hotel and stuff like that. And I was just like, I don't know. I don't wanna do this too much longer. You know, like, this is, this is rough. I mean, I remember in 2012 we were like, I was with the Virgin, Virgin Islands, um, four by one team, and like we were, it was like four or five dudes in one apartment. I mean, rugby players have the same story, like four or five dudes in one apartment, uh, you know. Mm-Hmm., eating, eating, you know, not crap, but like, not the greatest food, you know, kind of living on top of each other. I was like, man, I'm not trying to do this. I'm not trying to do this. This is lame like You know the the competition and the track meets we were able to go to was cool And like I said, like the environment Training with those people and training with those guys and just seeing like it did two things for me Like like I said, it did two things. It made me realize Like how hard you have to work, but it also helped me realize like how close I was to being at that level Like I see these guys on tv and i'm like man I don't you know, would I ever be able to like compete with these guys and then I go train with them It's like yeah, they're better than me, but I can I can play with I can run with these guys I can or I can play with them. So It really gave me a shot in the, a shot in the arm athletic, a shot in the, a shot of confidence athletically. But then at the same time, I was still like, I don't, I can't keep doing this for too much longer. Like, I'm not, I need to make some kind of real money here. This is not fun. Professional sports, like once you get to that level, I love dealing, well, I don't mind both, but you've got like a, we take the 80 20 approach a lot of the time. So we do like the, The I don't know what the camera's doing here the 20 percent of things that give us 80 percent of the results But once you get to a professional level, you've got a full time schedule, you know, you can train twice a day Maybe even three times a day. You've got all the recovery needs that you need Now it's about really sort of carving out whatever you can out of that top 20 percent to get, you know, and that takes 80%. So it takes four times the effort to get a fifth of the results or a quarter of the results. And it's like, it's so hard to measure or so hard to figure out what those things need to be because you just need that, because first of all, you just need that mindset that you're going to continually work, that you, you know, you. Even if it is that tiny percentage, that's fine. You have to keep taking those little wins when they come plus You don't want to be to the point where and I can imagine this with track where it's like really specifically output based you can't be at the point where you're Overextending yourself because then actually you're not getting the extra percentages and you might actually be taking those away Um, especially when you're like suffering and in an apartment on top of each other, etc You It's funny because I actually qualified for the under 23 championships that year and it's gonna be in I want to say it was gonna be in Guadalajara, Mexico. Mm hmm. I think it was definitely in Mexico I can't remember the city that year to the 2012 And I qualified for it and I was like, I'm not going like I just I don't I've traveled all summer And I, I, you know, some, some parts of me regret it regrets this, but I traveled all summer and I was like, I wasn't healthy that year. I remember that year I pulled my hamstring really bad in April of that year. And I was like, I pushed myself to get back. I absolutely pushed myself to get back and try to try to run some races to get back in it. And I did, I ran fast enough to qualify for that, but I was just like, I can't do this anymore. I'm like, my shins are killing me. My hamstring is. You feel like it's about to fall off the bone right now and i'm just i'm i'm i'm over it and I remember I got I got in a little bit of trouble with the with the uh, the federation for that like they didn't like that very much It was just a point where I was like, I can't I can't give any more not right now Anyways, and then shortly after that I was like, I think i'm gonna hang out my track spikes. I don't i'm not gonna do it There is Like a I don't want to call it social I guess like community like sort of grassroots track There are ways that you can still continue to compete, right? Even if you're not trying to push for the higher level. I'm assuming you just thought, no, I'm like, because you'd been at that high level, it just wasn't worth it for you. How long was the gap after deciding to hang your spikes up to then discovering rugby? Uh, let's see, I see, I, I technically I retired from track the moment I decided I didn't want to go to the championships. It just took me a while to like actually stop training and stop. I think it's probably because I was just in the habit of doing so, continuing to train and continuing to look to compete. So that was in 2012. And then I kind of often non competed trained until 2014. Um, my brother was playing in. The sevens tournament was in Vegas at the time, and they had it. I think it was like a Sam Boyd Stadium in Vegas, and he was playing on a on a legs team out there, and I went and saw him play, and that was my first, like, live introduction to rugby. That was the first time I've ever seen it up close and personal. And even then, the coach was like, his, the coach of his team was like, go ahead, come play, come play. And I was like, nah, I'm not, I'm not doing this. These guys are running around here without any kind of preparation. Was he playing for college? Or, uh Yeah, he was playing, he played at the University of New Mexico. And, uh, that team's called the Black Dragons, Black Dragons Rugby. Oh, I know that team. Samoan's Invitational Team? Yeah, yeah. Um, Angus. Yep. He's the one who ran that, that, that program. And, uh Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rugby community is crazy small. Um, but yeah, they're the ones who introduced me to it and it took me another two years before I really was like, all right, let's play. Uh, I didn't start playing until August of 2016. Okay. What did you do in those two years? Uh, between 2014, 2016. Man, I was out here hooping man. I was, I turned, I turned into a Russell Westbrook for two summers. I was just out here playing. I was just doing whatever I wanted. You know, I was 24 hour fitness, just doing something. Yeah, man. I was, I got one summer. I got huge. I couldn't even move. I wasn't even athlete anymore. I was just bodybuilding doing 10 reps of squats, five sets, just trying to get big. And then I remember one time I played basketball with my homies. And I couldn't move and I was like, no, I can't do this. Like, this is not how I'm supposed to feel. I can't move at all. So I lost a bunch of, a bunch, a bunch of that weight. And then I just, just playing basketball a lot, man. I mean, at that, at that age, I was playing, I'll go run ball for like four or five hours in the, in the summer months and then go lift some weights and do it all over again the next day. You know, I had work and stuff like that, obviously. And then once I saw rugby, I was like, oh, you know, well, This is an opportunity for me to because I saw my brother playing and he was still competing like The coach was like your brother can be really good if he really applied himself like and you know I was like, well, you know, this is still a pathway for high level athletes so I was like, you know, let me see if I can do something with it and That's when I kind of came into it. Did your did your brother run track as well? No, my brother was a football player He's more he's he's a lot bigger than me. My younger brother. He's like 6 2 like 220. He's You He's a football player, and he originally went to, um, New Mexico to play football, I think he wanted to play football, but he discovered how rigorous it is to train for football, and I think he had a change of heart, and he found rugby to be a little bit more, uh, welcoming to what he wanted to do in his life at that time, so he stuck with that. Yeah, your story about basketball is funny, because I see it in England with like, they call it, I think it's Power League. People from England might correct me if I'm wrong with that. That might be outdated now, but I used to try and do that. So it's, it's football. It's, uh, five a side football usually. Um, and like, they've got these cages and they've got them all over, right? So you can just go play for a couple hours, not necessarily every night because people just, it's rough on the old hamstrings, but yeah, you go and play and you can, you can just dip in your toe one week. Play a couple play a couple games and then not play for another month and then you know, you might play again Yeah, and you'll have a few committed people and then yeah You can go to the gym or go to the gym before or after doesn't really matter and it's Somewhat of a competitive edge, but I think it does carry just a little bit too much of a of a social or not really just maybe it's just a non competitive component to the whole thing, you know, you know, you're you're doing it just for For fun and even though you're doing rugby for fun Like I don't know you can't really dip your toes into rugby As a especially as a new sport, you know, you can maybe do it We've got guys that I i've been coaching that are in there Uh, forties and whatnot that have been playing for a couple decades and then they just play for invitational teams or touring teams or whenever they can play it. But you can't do that in your twenties with rugby, you know? So, um, how was your entrance into rugby and, and what did that look like? Uh, so I started, I started rugby with, uh, University of Kansas men's side club team. They had, they fielded a collegiate team and then they fielded a men's side because I was already graduated. I didn't have any eligibility left, so I couldn't play for the collegiate team, obviously. But I am, I always say like, whenever people ask me this question, I always say that I'm happy that I came into rugby at that club because they had the, like a real rugby club feel. They had their own field, you know what I'm saying? So, you know, they have their own, they went on tours, uh, within, I started in August of 2016, by April of 2017, I was in New Zealand on tour, uh, with that watching the all blacks play the British and Irish lions in Auckland, you know? So it was like, I'm already fully immersed in this world that I just discovered a few months ago. I'm playing rugby in the country where they play it the best, at least at the time. Um, I get to watch these players up close, you know, I'm watching Sonny Bill Williams. I didn't even know that guy existed since five months before and now I'm watching the dude play the British and Irish line. So I mean, and that was made possible by being with this club. So it was, uh, you know, as far as the gameplay itself, the culture was great. The gameplay itself to me was, it was easy and it was hard at the same time. It was easy because I was clear in a way the most athletic person on the, on the pitch on either side, but I had no idea what the hell I was doing. So it didn't really translate to anything, at least in the first like year and a half that I was playing. So I didn't score any tries. I don't think our first like two seasons, I didn't score any tries. I didn't. Did you find those first two seasons frustrating? Yes, absolutely. For a couple of reasons. Again, I'm coming from elite, elite. sporting backgrounds, high level sporting backgrounds. So my mindset and how I approach training, how I approach the game, my mindset and how I play the game. Like I, I talk a lot of trash. Like these are environments I play for. These are this environment. I play sports and I grew up playing sports in the United States. I talk a lot of trash. It gets me going. I feel like my teammates feed off of it too. It gets them going in rugby though. It's not, it's, that's really frowned upon. It's not really. Especially the way I do it. It's probably not probably not good. Um, so that was frustrating. Um, not knowing. I think I got a lot of like information overload a little bit. You know, you have people telling you, you should offload it here. You should pass it here. You should look to kick, look to put a grubber in or do this, this, that and the third. I'm like, I don't know any of these things are and like, I don't have the skill or, you know, to do any of the, I just know I could run. So just give me the ball in space and let me run. The problem is, When you're playing rugby, when you're playing the wing on a low, and I'm sure all wingers can attest to this, when you're playing wing on the lower levels, it's really hard to get the ball with space. Because the back line has drifted all the way across the field, and now you got to do some, some miraculous stuff to, to get some space. So, the first two seasons was just, uh, IQ type thing. And then, like, the next season after that, that's when I started scoring multiple tries a game and kind of making myself known as an offensive threat. Do you think when you first started playing, you weren't quite aware of the complexities of the game? Particularly, each individual player has such a, a unique role that they can play within any given team. You know, any different player within any different team. There's so many different ways to, uh, solve the problems, you know, and you're tasked with being the person to do it. It's not like football. American football where you know exactly what your role is and all you've gotta do is execute the goal. You are, you are solving all these problems on the, on the fly. And there are so many different ways to do it. And it's, it's funny 'cause when you watch it, you think, oh, this game's really fucking simple. All I've gotta do is get the ball and run, run hard and, or we've gotta pass it to the wing, get that guy in space and he is gonna run and score. It's not, it's really complex, you know, even on the wing, right? Which is probably the simplest position that you can play. That is still really layered with its own complexities. At what point did you start appreciating that level of things, that level of the complexities of the game and the skills that you need to actually really appreciate? Last season, I had to get, I had to get with, I had to, seriously, I had to get with a better coach, I think, um, who knew how to coach a winger. It's funny because I played for four, uh, four seasons, I think in Orlando, uh, in Florida, the, uh, Orlando Rugby Club. I don't want to, I don't know if name dropping is cool on this, but whatever. I played for four years for them. And then the last two seasons I've been playing with the San Jose Seahawks. And I just, when I played with Orlando, I was like, I don't want to be a wing. Like, this sucks. Like, this is a boring position. I'm, you're not, I'm not utilizing my athleticism. Like, I'm so dynamic and you have me just standing on the wind when waiting for the run. I think that's so pointless. Um, at least like put me at like, I don't know, 12 or something. Let me get the ball or something. And I wasn't able to do any of that. But then when I got to San Jose and I got to some, I, in my opinion, real coaching, I was now made aware of the fact of how many different ways I can affect the game as a winger. And it wasn't just waiting for the get to get the ball in hand. It was. Commu, like even small things like communicating with my other back, my, my other back, uh, my, my full back and my, my weakside winger on, on a kick so we can get a good counter counter or a counter on the kick. Even small stuff like that, it was just, I didn't, I didn't know I should be aware of that type of stuff until I got San Jose and it just made me a much better, all around winger. Like I always thought that I was pretty good at, you know, running a ball in the hand and making the, the right decision. Um, but like even how I play defense as a wing matters, how I retreat on the kick matters. And it was just putting out all that whole package together as a winger was much more difficult when I actually realized how to actually play the position that I thought. Yeah. Um, when it's just kind of, when it's kind of, when it's kind of like told to you to just catch the ball and run as a winger, which is what happens to, I think, a lot of crossover athletes when they come play rugby, it kind of dumbs the position down, but I don't think it's. Fair to wingers because I, I winger is the more simple, uh, is the more simple position to play, but it's still not an easy position to play. I see. You get isolated a lot. You're out there on, you're out there on a, on an island and you're a lot of times matched up against the other most athletic players on the team. So it's, that's really difficult to defend. But also it, it, it's still, it's this maybe the simplest, but it can be as complex as you can make it. And if you add to it, like if you are just standing there waiting for the ball. Essentially, your team is only playing with 14 players, or 13 players if both wingers are doing that. And therefore, you know, it's a lot harder for them to get you the ball because you're not actually part of the unit. I think chasing kicks down, going looking for work, these are the things that wingers, Don't and also people just watching the game don't appreciate the winger should be doing and it's why uh, like you get Freaks like, uh, henry arundel is a perfect example. The the english ringer who's just a beast like you've seen clips of him squat I think it's like 220 40 kilos plus you've seen some of these amazing tries when he does get the ball And then people say, why is he not playing for England every single week? Why is he like, why are we even questioning? And then you watch him in a game and there are games where he just goes missing. I'm not saying that like I'm not necessarily criticizing him as an athlete. I do think he's young There's just things that he's got to work on at that level and that's fine. But it's that people should appreciate it It's very easy to not appreciate it It's very easy to see the winger as the person that just gets the ball at the end Of a play or when things go right and then they do the job. Winger's work should be A lot more than that. Do you think your, uh, soccer background helped that, uh, my soccer background helped with being able to identify space? I think Mm-Hmm. and communicating that space. Yep. Um, definitely. I, I, I, I happen to think the way that I run, I, I ran lines as a striker or as a winger in soccer. Football is kind of the same way that you run a line in, in rugby in a lot of the same ways. Um, using some kind of deception with the body or with the eyes, shoulders, whatever, maybe rounding your line out and then rounding your line out to make it look like you're going one way and coming back the other way. All that stuff I did as a soccer player and then just being able to look up and use my eyes and scan the field to see what the space is, um, that definitely came from, I know 100 percent that came from soccer. Um, I would say that like when I played in my, the way that I played wing in Orlando was different than I have. I play in San Jose. I was in Orlando. I would say I was a battering ram because my team needed me to be that my team needed me to be a guy who could hit a rock on the outside, out outer channels three, four times in a row, because that's, you know, that's just what my team needed at the time. Um, They needed like I was going to make a lot of tackles as a winger for my old club because of our deficiencies or whatever the case was, how we how we were set up or whatever the defense we ran, whatever in my my club now, like I barely make any times. And I love that. That's great. Um, and I don't have to hit as many rucks due to maybe just a skill level in the fitness level, the players I'm playing with now. But it freed me up to do a lot more, a lot of other things too. Like I'm, I come off my wing more often now I'm over chasing work on the other side. Sometimes the forward might have a pod that they set up and I might step in and take charge of that pod because you know, I have a favorable matchup on my side. Being able to have the coach trust me enough to, for me to call some things out and you know, typically it's, it's the scrum half or the fly half or the, or the 15th calling stuff out. Did coach trust me enough for me to be like, all right, you know, I see this on, let's, let's do this. Or, hey, you guys are going, um, I use, I say strong and weak. I'm so, I'm used to saying that from American football terminology. If you see a play going strong side, I can call something out so we can come back weak side because I have a matchup on the backside. So, and, and these are things that I didn't, I didn't, I didn't know I could do in my old club. And now I know I can, it just made me so much of a better player and more useful player in my opinion. And then at what point did Grenada start to come on the radar for you? That was, well, you know what, to be honest, Grenada, so the very first moment I started playing rugby, I was like, I want to do something in the Caribbean. Like, the Caribbean is a big part of my identity. Um, and I, for the very moment, I was like, we're going to do something in the Caribbean. I didn't know what it was going to be. At the time, I certainly didn't know how many teams are like, um, I didn't know the magnitude of the RAND tournament at the time. The RAND tournament is the, uh, the governing body, uh, Rugby Americas North is the governing body of the region. Um, and it includes USA, Canada, Mexico, Mexico, Jamaica, so on and so forth. Um, but I didn't get serious about like doing something until I tore my Achilles. And it just kind of gave me the time and perspective to, to kind of, you know, shift some things that way. Um, And at that time I was kind of sitting around like my feet kicked up because I tore my Achilles and I was like, well, let me see what's going on with the RAND tournament. That was 2022, I believe. I think it's 2022. And I was like, um, It was, it was the RAN tournament 2022 that summer for qualifications for, uh, Commonwealth games. And I was like, Grenada's not here. This is the Commonwealth country, supposedly a Commonwealth country. Where are we at? And I was, there was, I saw no trace of Grenada, Grenada rugby anywhere. And that was kind of the moment I was like, Oh, maybe I can do this. And I made a couple of calls, sent a couple of emails. And then, you know, from, I think that was in like early 2022, had to be like March, April by May of 2022. We scheduled a training session. A few people came and it's been going ever since. Um, we had, as you know, we've had multiple sevens tournaments. Um, we've had, uh, we just had a, a huge, a huge equipment drop from the British high, what do you call it? British high commission. It's like the embassy. Um, they dropped off a ton of rugby equipment. So, I mean, it's just something that I saw that was needed at the time and just decided to see if I can bring it, Make it, uh, make it true. So what was Grenada Rugby like before, before that? It was non existent. They didn't have one. Not that I can see anywhere. It's not that we can find. Okay. So, so you essentially got in contact and set up a board, a governing body for the entire country. Pretty much. Um, we got in contact with a gentleman who was, who had kind of like, Seen or heard about rugby and wanted to see how we can, you know, make it happen in Grenada. And I don't think he had like, you know, the connections and it was just kind of like, I don't want to say divine intervention, but it was kind of like the stars aligned where we, you know, we happen to meet up with each other or not meet up with each other, but we got connected to each other and we were like, Hey, well, how can we do this? I'm not in Grenada at the time, obviously, but I can maybe land some of my connections here. Uh, yeah. Some of my, you know, expertise being around, you know, being around sports for this long and see how we can develop this. And we just said, Hey, let's see if we can have a training session. We had a training session. Some people came, came together. We had one rugby ball. We found somebody who had one rugby ball and we were just like, they just came in together and toss it around. And they just kept on doing it every Saturday for was since May of 2022. And they still, there was no record. Yeah, still going. The team's going. Um, we have one team right now still. Um, but we regularly split those teams into like two teams so they can compete against each other. Sevens. We're gonna focus on sevens right now. Obviously, we don't have the manpower, the resources to do 15. Um, but we have, um, at least I would say 20 Five to thirty people coming out somewhere around there. We have a number of women coming out now We have kids coming out So it's just about putting it all together in different parts of the country or whatever to make it kind of See if we can make it bang or whatever. What does the landscape of sport in grenada look like? Is it is it cricket heavy like the rest of the caribbean or is it I would say so Cricket is definitely one of the more popular sports there Uh, I would say track and field is probably the most popular sport Um, our like national heroes, Karani James, you know, um, he run the, he won a gold medal in the 400. I can't remember which Olympics. I think he has multiple medals in the 400. Yeah. Anderson Peters. Um, Victor, he's a multi veteran. So track and field is definitely the far and away favorite, uh, sport. And then there's cricket and then soccer. Um, and after that, it's like a pretty big drop off for who's going to be in the fourth position as far as like the most popular sport. Okay. Uh, and is there, is there a lot of, um, social sports, you know, like grassroots sports going on that are fairly competitive in a way that like rugby is, or is that almost non existent, maybe like water sports and stuff? Uh, water sports. I don't, I don't know too much more. It's like, there's some, it's like cycling, and there's people who do triathlons, stuff like that. So it's, the grassroots sporting community, like community sports type, type of stuff, growing up, I think, like, you know, like, you learn like that. It's definitely, you know, Something that more and more people are getting involved in. The government, I know, is making a big push to like, you know, to get people out and more involved. Uh, live a healthier, living a healthier lifestyle, more community based lifestyle. And sports is a big way that they're pushing those initiatives and stuff like that. So, um, it's definitely, the sporting landscape in general is still growing. In in the caribbean large, yeah, and I I guess one of the biggest struggles has got to be Just getting game time because it's a fairly small island Like you say you've got one squad even though they can have like, uh, into intra squad matches, etc But if they want to go anywhere else, they've got to go to another country essentially And if they want to do tournaments or whatever, um right now Yeah And, and how are they, how are they trying to square that circle? So that's the, that's actually the, the, the biggest probably, roadblock we have, and I don't know, developing the sport and the habit. Um, but right now, sorry, every country, St. Lucia, Trinidad, Tobago, St. Ben, St. Barbados, uh, Guyana, I'll have rugby unions and pretty decent teams who have traveled, um, before. So, excuse me. So, we would like to try to get our players over there, but we're really trying to focus on developing our own domestically. We have six parishes in Grenada, and we want to have at least two teams in each parish. So we will have 12 teams to compete, um, and develop so that we can have our, our athletes competing against each other on a regular basis. That'll be cool. We have, like, we have, I have a I have a couple of different things in the works. It's just, it's about the manpower and it's about like, getting people to kind of see the vision that I see. Like I have all Parrish games where, you know, the best, the best athletes from each, each of the teams in the Parrish will now they get to play to their own, you know, all star team in their Parrish so they can compete against each other in another tournament. At least we're trying to go on Ireland, trying to get the team. Olympic committee involved. I've already been recognized the official government body our minister of sport So that was huge for us. And so I was just pulling many What were we talking about you you were trying to set up the you're trying to grow the game within the country of grenade rather than trying to you know make a a A team that is just constantly touring, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's important to have our own selection pool being developed and my philosophy is like everybody people obviously we look at sides of countries and see how like Deep or shallow one country my selection pool might be I think smaller countries Obviously we have a disadvantage with how many players how many players we can select but I think just in my in my theory is like if you get to play with your teammates more often um, it will bode well for you if you can Select high enough level players and you still got to have the talent. Don't get me wrong You still got to be able to put players out there who can compete But I know other countries have the issue with the country being so big they can't get it's harder to get their team together You It's more expensive to get their team together. Whereas we can have you know, our team right there Most of them are going to be on the same team. Anyway, so I don't know. I just try to keep an optimistic view on what our advantages and disadvantages could be or might be as a as a Rugby playing nation, I guess there's a there's different ways to go about it, right? Because I imagine you've got um, Like you have access to a number of players that have the heritage that similar to you You That would qualify that way either most likely through the u. s Um potentially through the uk as well. I know Jamaica, that's what they've done. I've got a friend. I've got a couple mates that have played for barbados um, you know The list is quite long, but obviously then the costs, um Start ramping up if you're having to get guys in from the states from the uk Australia wherever all of a sudden. Yeah, those costs ramp up and that's not sustainable. It's not like oh, we're just gonna You Represent the country, but we're only relying on people that have you know heritage from here instead You want to grow the game within the country, right? yeah, we want to go to game within the country and instead of having those uk or us us base players being the the like the the the whole make of the entire makeup of the team we want to have we want to Implement them strategically. We want to we want our we want our players In grenada to be as good or better than them instead of having to rely on that. You know, we want to be able to send the team from Grenada out and not even have to worry about the U. S. A. U. K. Players essentially. And then once we do add them item together, it's gonna be even better. That's my thinking anyways, you know, nothing works out quite how we want it to, but that's the approach I'm going to, I'm taking to trying to, you know, grow it, at least right now. You need, you need a goal to start off with, right? So if that's, that's your aim, that's your sort of guiding light, same what we do with our coaching, right? If you've got your North Star, what you want to achieve, you're not going to exactly get exactly there. But going along that way, at least you've got a guiding light, you've got guiding principles as to how you want to operate. What is the end goal for Grenada or what is that? Like, what do you foresee is the big picture? Um, is it an Olympics? Is it world rugby? Is it the game even just being a sustainable, like, one of the main options to play in the country itself? For me, it's always going to be Olympics. Um, for me, it's always gonna be aimed to the highest level that you can possibly get to, and it might look impossible for a lot of Caribbean nations now. But I just I just feel like we have the athletes in the Caribbean to play Play to play at that level. We prove it time and time again, whether it be track and field or some other sport or, you know, a lot of times it's Caribbean athletes who maybe grew up in England, grew up in the United States, who are now representing England or United States or something like that. So I mean, there's that's still in my head. At least it's still a Caribbean athlete who's playing at a high level. So it's proof there's proof in the pudding that we can produce incredible athletes with, you know, and from small population size. So, for me, The goal is to, first and foremost right now, become an official member of, of our governor body, ran, and then qualify for, go through the qualification process to qualify for ran tournaments, and then qualify for whatever tournaments we can, PanAm games, Commonwealth games, CACs, and then to get experience to go to the Olympics and just knock off whatever country's in front of us from, you know, from the time we, we put our two feet into it. I, I happen to think. And maybe this might rub people the wrong way, but I happen to think that if Grenada were able to put together seven teams now with what we have, we have a number of young players in the U. K., we have experienced players like myself, younger players in the U. S. as well, um, and a couple of decent athletes in Grenada who I think could, could be plugged in right now. And I think, I'm pretty certain that we can compete in RAN. Right now I feel like if we put together a squad we can at least place in the top five and ran ran would be I don't know USA Canada Where else have we got Barbados Jamaica? Mexico Mexico Trinidad and Tobago Guyana Okay, Bermuda Turks and Caicos Cayman Islands Belize st. Lucia st. Vincent And I'm probably forgetting a couple of others. Okay, so you would like to be able to qualify for the Olympics? Excluding the U. S. and Canada. Yeah, you have to knock off those two, right? Right, right. So, a lot of times the U. S. and the Canada would have automatic qualifications anyway. Except for this year, they didn't have it this year. I think they had to, they had to play it ran this year. But usually they have, so I, I, whenever I talk about that, I don't even like, look at the U. S. and Canada. Not right now. I just want to be the best in the Caribbean, of the Caribbean countries. Once we get there, then we can start like, looking at, You know, the incremental steps we take to getting to where we want to go. Let's, and I can break it down even further. Like, let's be the best that we can be in our own, in our own tiny little region in the Caribbean, like the Southeastern part of the Caribbean. Let's just be the best there. Then get, be the best in the entire Caribbean and then be the best in the entire region. And that's, once we started talking about the region, now that's when we started talking about knocking off, you know, some Davids, some Goliaths. I mean, so. So what's the pathway to get to that? And what are the current Caribbean countries doing that are, what's the most successful, probably Jamaica would be the most, the most successful. I would say Jamaica, Jamaica, Jamaica, Mexico. Yeah. So what have they got going on that, uh, you need to catch up with? Well, they had time. I think that's the biggest thing they've, they've been able to, they've, they've have a long, longer history with it. Uh, do they have club sides regularly competing within the country as well? Yeah. Yeah, they have club size, regularly competing, they have, excuse me, they have athletes who are now leaving the island to compete, um, on touring teams in the U. S. So I know they had, uh, I can't remember if it was an entire U 18 team or they had a couple U 18 players at the Tropical Sevens tournament in Tampa, Florida. But even things like that is just a good way for players to get top competition early. Um, and that's kind of what we're, what we're going to mimic as well. Um, getting individual players, at least for right now to say, okay, Hey, we might not have a whole squad that we can put in to this tournament where we have a few players who are showing promise. What teams can they can we possibly connect with so they can come and get that experience, even if they don't play even if they're the 13th 14th man on the roster. They're in a camp with experienced players in a camp with an experienced coach. They see what is what it takes they know they see what the fitness fitness requirements are. They see the speed of the game, they see the how much you got to communicate, and even if they don't play or even they get a minute or two the entire weekend, they can take that back to the island and share it with their teammates, share it with their coaches. So that's what I'm hoping the trickle down effect will happen until we're able to put more teams in. Also, we're trying to get connected with more touring teams as we talk about touring teams. Um, if we look at the rugby landscape, like, you know, England, U. S. A. Uh, France, whatever, all these play all these countries, they have underneath their national team. They have high level touring team select sides. And so the Caribbean, we don't have too many of that. We just have The national team and then we have the club teams in country. We don't have a team in between those things that would take players up and say, okay, here's a, here's where you're going to, we're going to take you. We're going to, you know, shine you up so you can go to your national team. So we want to create those types of pathways as well. And you know, the maroons, I know we've talked about the maroons. That's a project that I've, I've jumped in as well. It's kind of, kind of, uh, Move into that, that sector where we can, you know, bring players from Grenada, from St. Lucia, St. Vincent. This is a smaller player, the smaller countries in the Caribbean and give them opportunities to play, to play against much higher levels of competition earlier. The big thing for me, especially in the Caribbean is like, you can't wait until players are now 25, 26 to give them that, to get them that experience. Those guys got it. These guys and gals got to be able to get this experience. When they're like 17 18, we want them to play as high level as they can Early, we don't have the luxury of like waiting until they're like super grown for that to happen So we want to get them up there sooner rather than later. Okay, so then your effort with the maroons that's like the developmental side of Grenada and Potentially surrounding countries very similar to what i've seen quite a few Uh teams in europe. I remember when I was playing You This is back in, I'm going to sound old now, like 2011, I think it was, or 2012. And I was doing the seventh circuit with a couple of touring teams. And we would always come across, uh, there was a Samurai team that was basically the Spain national team. And essentially they broke a deal with Samurai where there's like, right, we're going to give you our national team. We'll go represent you and you then you sponsor us. You then, you know, you get Samurai. You would already be sponsoring players anyway. So you've got private investment going into what is a public, you know, or a national team and it just, it's win win. They get all the experience of not necessarily like the top flight of, you know, World Sevens, but I do believe they qualified for World Sevens like the following year and maybe the year following that as well. They stayed in because of that, because they just got, Reps in they got you know, even if it wasn't the exact same team You've got enough guys there that now know each other. They know the procedure They know, you know a two day tournament structure how that operates how they best feel The recovery from that the foods that they get in all of that goes into you know, even just calming the nerves down and then making sure that you are playing at your best and I think That's that's a top effort and then you do that and then those people then give the experience to Um, as you said, they go return. Yeah, I think that's, so what are you doing then with the maroons? Uh, what's the goal for that? And, uh, tell us a little bit more about that. The maroons, that is, uh, like you said, it's going to be a developmental pathway. So I look at it, uh, like the, in my, in my like perfect world, it would be something like the rhinos in Southern California, where we have like an academy players can come there, live there, whatever. You know, we have a, an alumni network that can hook them up with jobs, so on and so forth. And you know, we just develop players at the highest level that we can. And we'll have, uh, you 23. Men's women's, maybe some U 18 at a certain point, but just trying to pluck and place players as quickly and as soon as possible. Um, we want to play in tournaments, but the, the other like goals of, with the maroons is to help develop Caribbean rugby as a whole. So we won't always play at the biggest and best tournament. Sometimes we're playing tournaments. That's not as known, and that would be a great way to get players reps as well. Um, so really the maroons is not just about player development. Right. Exactly. It's not just about player development. It's also about just developing the game in general, like the game in, in our region in general. And we need more high level teams, you know, teams that, that can put some visibility in the Caribbean out there. Like we have, I mean, I played on, I played on one called the Misfits and the Maroons kind of like is the second, I guess. Um, maybe there's more, I don't know, you know, I don't want people to think that I'm making claims or whatever, but I don't see too many others. Right. Um, but they're popping up now. They're coming up now. There's a women's team called the Caribbean Queens. They, they won third place in Grenada sevens in December. So that's, that's a big deal for, for the rest of us. You know, if we can see Caribbean teams going to these tournaments and regularly and competing. And getting on the podium and getting medals, that's only going to influence players to, to, to train even harder and want to get involved in these programs. So how long until, like, Grenada Rugby officially becomes, like, a member of the, uh, RAN and then, like, officially can give out, like, capped, uh, appearances in tournaments and what not? I'm hoping by this year. Um, we're, the, the, we've met a certain, we have. I want to say there's like eight or so requirements that you have to like the governing body gives you a certain amount of steps that you got to do. You got to be recognized by your government, be recognized by Olympic, the Olympic committee, have, you know, good financial standing, so on and so forth. And we've checked off. At least five or six of those. And so we're just waiting on a couple. I think the, the one, the two things we're waiting on is the confirmation from our Olympic committee. And also we have to have four teams regularly playing against each other.. So it's just about getting to the point where we can have four teams regularly and then get the O. C., and then we get the, we, there's a vote in August, uh, the governing body votes in August, and there, that will be the time when they will vote, they can vote us in. If not this year, cross my fingers that it's this year. If not this year, definitely by next year. Okay, cool. And what does that look like for you personally as far as well like managing both playing the game? So we've spoken lot of the playing we've spoken about is 15s as well So you've got you playing the game and we've also got you You know also playing the game with a long history of high level sport that you know Has its own issues and and stuff and then also Doing all this administrative stuff spearheading all these, uh trying to Get Grenada on the, on the rugby scene. I think part of it for me is like, I'm creating these things selfishly in a way too, because like, I want to play at these levels. So I'm like, I'm the type of person where like, if, if I'm going to look around and, you know, I'm, I'm asking the question, why is, why doesn't something exist rather than sit here and try to like, get people to make it exist for me. I'm just going to go make it exist for myself. And. You know, I play fifteens is what I started with. And I kind of fell in love with it. And I was like, Oh, you know, like, I really love him. I don't like sevens as much. I want to play fifteens. And the goal originally was to, you know, MLR. I felt like I have, I have the ability, certainly have the athleticism to play in MLR, at least in the early days. And it didn't happen. You know, I'm not bitter about it. It's whatever. Um, so now it's for me, like, I feel like it's time to move on. Like sevens is probably what I've been more successful at made more select teams. I've had more success. As far as going to tournaments and, you know, placing the top three or whatever. So it's just about, you know, continuing to create platforms that, you know, I want to play on. Like, I want, I'm pushing really hard for Grenada to be in RAN because I want to represent Grenada. Like, I want to wear Grenada on my chest before I retire. Before I, you know, get too old to get, before I can't run like how I, like how I want to run and compete how I want to compete. The reason why, you know, I'm pushing to, to, to, to make them get the maroons up and going is because I also want to bring a team that I created to shit. I don't know, rugby town sevens or to, I don't know, Dubai or something and placing the top three or win the tournament. Like I want to be able to say, Hey, you know, I created this. I created this for other Caribbean players or other. Ran base players in this region and we just went to this tournament to win. Um, or we just went to the tournament and we won. So, um, the administrative stuff as far, I know you touched on that, that, that is, I think what keeps me going with that too is like, it's a lot of work and it's a lot to think about. But I feel like if there's a chance, especially when it comes to talking about representing Your country, your national team, if there's a chance that it can happen, like I'm going to keep doing it like as long as there's a chance that it could, you know, by next year when you have ran tournament that Grenada could be in that tournament and that I could be on that squad. I'm going to keep pushing for it and I don't I don't really mind the, the headaches or the stress that comes from that, to be honest with you. It's also it's got to be more of a. Like a rewarding experience as well, having it be something that you've set up, that you've helped support, like, even if the team, you know, finally manifests, potentially after you stop playing, let's just say, and push it, like for an extreme example, like in 10 years, right, because, If I was going to say three or four years, if they're still going, you're still going, um, but if we push it out, you know, if we push it out, say, say, you know, it took, there's so many hurdles that didn't quite get it. Even if it's like 10 years, that's still something that you, like, it wouldn't exist if it wasn't for you. You know what I mean? And so I feel like that's got to be way more of a an emotional like and and well more of a legacy building thing than If you just tried out for even if you tried out even if you played for like usa Got a couple caps on some tournaments and then just never did anything else after that Yeah, I definitely feel like that. I mean I think for for like when you You know So, so when I, when I, like, I, perfect example, like the footballers in, in, in, in the, in the Premier League, for example, and like, or like, even in like France, you know, these guys, they choose to play, and like, I'm not knocking them for playing for whoever they want to play for, but like, if a, if a player, like, let's just say Reece James, right? Reece James from Chelsea. His dad is from Grenada. If Reece James decided to play for Grenada instead of playing for England and if Reece James somehow, some way, led Grenada to a FIFA World Cup final or whatever and won it. Reece James is, he is an absolute legend for the rest of his life. Karani James won a gold medal in the 400 and he's on our currency. He has his own stadium named after him. He has his own, he has his own street named after him. So I'm like, I'd much rather. way, in a sense, then, and I know some people might be like, Oh, he's just salty. Like he can, he couldn't do it in the USA. But like, if you, if you bring a country like that to the promised land, you're going to be remembered forever. Like your name is going down in the country's history forever. And that's look anywhere in the Caribbean and that's. Like Kim Collins, his, uh, is, um, my dad is from St. Kitts and Nevis. That's where he was. He grew up in the Caribbean. Kim Collins is a sprinter from St. Kitts and he medaled. I can't remember what Olympics he medaled in. St. Kitts is a tiny Caribbean Island and he's, he has an airport named after him. He has a whole airport named after him because he won a medal. I don't, it wasn't even a gold medal. I think it was like a bronze or something like that. Yeah, that's hilarious. I'd much rather go for that. Yeah. And like, then it's, cause, Reece James, that's a great example, cause, you, you, you go, good football fans, 10, 15, 20 years from now, never gonna remember this guy, you know? Right. All right. Good football. The casual, the casual footy fans are not going to remember Reece James or well, I don't want to say that. Reece James is a really good football football. He might, he might be remembered, but the diehard guys like me, I watch football every weekend. Like I'm going to remember who Reece James was. You know what I mean? But the casual fans, they're not going to remember like that, but if you go to the Caribbean, the casual people are going to know, Hey, Karani James. Yeah. He's, you know, he's on the stadium. Like you can't, you can't miss that. Yeah, and that's that's that stadiums sticking around that road sticking around the Exactly on the coin Like that's a legacy and that legacy is also I mean you said that uh track is really popular there It's gonna be one of the reasons right? It's because they see this guy go win and they're like, okay, we can do it We're from this small country, but look at this guy So you start doing that with rugby you can do that with any sport like that's and I think There is something about the about human nature about like That is what we strive for as well as like individual glory It's in its individual glory is just a way to leave some somewhat of a legacy And if you can, you know continue to on the path that you're doing with grenade I think uh, I think we're in for a good one, man So how many minutes how many i'm gonna put you on a spot how many years have you got left in the tank? I can ask you because you're in the room with you, you know, so Oh man, I don't know. I think about that a lot. And maybe that means that maybe I don't have that much more time left because if I'm still, if I'm always thinking about how much more do I want to, you know, do this, the weird part, the confusing part is that when I train, when I play, I'm still really fast. I'm still really explosive. I'm still one of the better athletes on the pitch. And that's true whether I'm playing D2 15s or when I'm playing, uh, you know, sevens with players who played for who played for the U. S. A. Eagles or played an M. L. R. Um, I don't know, man, it's hard to tell. It's hard to know because I don't, you know, I've started playing rugby in 2016, like I said, but because of, like, injuries and, like, personal stuff happened, I've only taken contact for five of those years and in two of those years, I barely made any tackles because I didn't have to. So I haven't. My body doesn't have, even though I've been hurt, it doesn't have, like, the overall wear and tear of somebody who's might have been might have been playing since. Like early college or like high school. Yeah. So I think for me at this point, it's just a year by year basis, man. It was like, right. You get through this I still enjoy getting after it. There was a point in time where I was like, I didn't feel like gripping heavy for a while, I fully hit that, but for the most part, I still really enjoy getting after it, I still really enjoy going out there and competing. There's times where I'm like, I don't feel like doing this today and I go out there and I do it and I have a really good match. Um, so yeah, it's just about day by year by year. I don't know man. You might see me playing perry baker's 37 I feel like I can at least play this on 37. Yeah shock me. Yeah, that makes sense It's like what you said, um, you know, you don't Sevens is less contact as well. Like to an extent if you're good to your body He's had a couple injuries injuries are you Not a good thing, but again, it's less, it's one big wear and tear. And then, but then it's time without wear and tear on your body. I think we say this a lot with rubbery muscle. It's like, people like to use ages as numbers and say, Oh, at this age, I've got to do this at this age, most people retire just because they get really out of shape, not because of any age. And if anything, they get really out of shape because they stopped training like they did when they're in their twenties. And probably because how they were training in their 20s was fairly unsustainable, but also because you got kids, you got like a work weight job now cause you're going up the ladder at work. All of a sudden you got to travel more. You've got a bigger commitment to that. Fitness again then drops off. I feel like it's not until Late 30s at best taking out the wear and tear taking out the contact that you get, you know week in week out You know depending on the level that you've played And but and taking out that time of accumulation of all of those years of doing that There's no reason that you can't keep going into Yeah, you know at late 30s I there's a there's a guy mark bright. I played seven funny enough. I think he played for that samurai team He's a kiwi. I think he played for england sevens He's still going in the in the championship in the uk. So the the lead below the premiership and he's 40 I want to say i'm 43. Yeah, and he's still a back jimmy goppard is still going too, right? Yeah, I think uh, Maybe jimmy g. He's in his 40s. That's like the high level. That's like that's like That's like week in week out grinding 15s. I think Like you say you're still enjoying it if you're still progressing and this is to anyone listening really Like there's no reason that you have to retire because of age and likewise If you get beaten up and you've got big work concerns and stuff Whatever happens when you're in your early 20s, you might have to retire as well It's you shouldn't treat it as an age thing. You should treat it as how you feel You Your enjoyment and then opportunities as well. So like for you, you've got big opportunities We're not going to turn those away, you know? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Um, yeah, like I said, I still I still have that fire in my belly to like Go out and you know go to the go on the field talk some shit Like make make those young 21 year olds feel like, you know, feel me or whatever like I still have that I still have that competitive, you know spark and rage or whatever So like I don't You know, if the universe would allow me, I'll play until I'm until I can't play anymore. So So my question then would be What has changed since I guess 2021 when we first started the end of 2021 where we first started working with each other Um, you started training with rugby muscle Um, what changed with the way that you've trained that's allowed you to have that sort of mindset that you can continue can keep going Um, one of the biggest things Patience. And that's something me and you went back and forth on because I feel like you, I think you've learned my personality quite a bit since we've become, you know, since you became my SNC coach. Um, and like when I was younger, I felt like, like I had to hurry up and get the games or get good when you like, when, and I think this comes with along with age as well, like just wisdom, you know. Um, just staying the course is much better than trying to get, get whatever it is in a week or two. Like it's never going to happen that way. And you have to kind of take the long term approach. You have to take a long term approach to to your training and development. Uh, and that's not something that I was doing before. And part of it is just like, I didn't know how to, you know, I didn't know How to structure anything. Like once I got out of college and stopped running track, like I'm not structuring this anymore. Like it was, I never did. It was my strength and conditioning coach there. Now I'm trying to do it. I didn't know what I was doing. And, um, you know, my body physically, physiologically has changed. Like, because of the way I'm training, I'm 30 pounds heavier. I'm 200 pounds. And I never thought I'd be able to carry 200 pounds. I, there was a time in my life where I was carrying 185 pounds and I felt. It felt horrible. Like it didn't even make sense for me to be that heavy. And now I'm 200 pounds and I can still run the way I want to run. So it was just about being patient, staying the course and learning how to just be consistent. And it sounds like a cliche probably is at this point, but it really is a truth. Like you really just have to do the same things. Over and over and over and over and over again, and eventually you're going to get to that goal, or you're going to get really close to it, so. But the right thing as well. Yeah, yeah, you can't, you know, you can't, you know, run your head into a wall thinking that's going to, you know, knock the wall down. It might, but you also might knock yourself out in the process, so. You're almost certainly going to knock yourself out. I think it's just that like, um, you know, sometimes opportunities come, but they don't come from you rushing anything. They, they come because the universe presents them and you're ready. So you stay that course. And what most people do, I think is, and this is good to learn this lesson from you that came, you must've been 30 when you first started, right? Oh yeah. I was 31. Yeah, I was 31. Yeah, so To to know that you start at 31 And then it's an end to learn patience because I know people that are in you know, 20s or coach people in their 20s same thing right they they And I get it We both get that mindset. You don't want to leave any stone unturned as far as like making progress and improving but in constantly trying to Look for new stones to turn over. All you're doing really is You Short, uh, Shorten yourself on the progress that you can make with the stone that you you need to be focusing on if that makes sense right, it's Right. It is that consistency and we want that especially Man, like I see you on social media like every every cool gym, uh athletic thing that's to do with rugby or to do with just any sort of cool training hack, um, or not training hack Any cool flashy thing that looks quite cool and and someone's made progress we're all liking it, you know And that's how it is if we see this other Uh sprint technique that we want to try and add into our training cool like and that's not just On a weekly basis when we want to look up, Oh, what do we do for training that is every time you're on a, on every time you're on a toilet, every time like you're just bored, all of a sudden, Instagram pops up, there's more information, more information, and then you start to think, maybe I'm not doing it right, and that's where the impatient, right, right, it's, and that's tough because, you know, like you said, as an athlete, like our athletic, our athletic window is comparatively to your life is pretty short, like you might, you know, Those of us who are lucky might get to play like high level sports, you know, most people for a couple of years, you know, and, and then after that it's, it's done for it. So like, you don't want to waste, or you don't want to feel like you're wasting time with something that is not working or you don't, you know, you want to try stuff to, to make it work. More but like you're just going to chase your chase chase a lot of stuff That's not going to matter in the long run in that time You're chasing stuff You're going to waste a lot of time and waste a lot of the momentum or a lot of opportunities that you possibly could have Made good with yeah, have you just stuck to the course? Well, I mean life is short, right? That's why you're doing all this stuff with grenade to leave a leave a legacy All right, we'll uh, we'll wrap this up here mate. Uh, this has been great. I I really enjoyed this. Um, Do you have any? Yeah, I hope we can do it again. I, we do, I, I, I wanna do this again. Maybe, maybe post, uh, rand, pay me, maybe post, um, one of the tournaments or something. We'll, we'll get you back on. We'll, we'll sure. Have a little progress update. Um, is there anywhere or what's the best way people can go and follow along with your journey, Grenada's journey, et cetera? Got a couple of places you can personally follow me if you want I don't really post too much on my personal account, so you know that but you can follow me at flash Brown. That's a flash and Last name Brown B R O W N E. You can follow Maroons Rugby. You can follow Maroons Rugby M A R O O N S Rugby and then you can follow Grenada Rugby all on IG Awesome. While we're looking out, what's on the horizon for yourself, Maroons, and uh, this will go out post, uh, playoffs, so maybe you'll have a playoff final. You'll have a, what's going on, and what's on the horizon for Maroons and for Grenada? Well, uh, this is going out post, so hopefully a national championship, and the next time, well, whenever this comes out, we'll be. It'll be a national championship. Um, and then Maroons, we're going to Grenada again. We're going to try to win that one in December. We got a women's team going to St. Lucia in July. And then New York sevens, New York sevens in November, I believe. And then we're just, we're just trying to build this thing brick by brick. We're not rushing into too many tournaments, trying to stress ourself too thin. We're going to, you know, play in a tournament that we know we feel that makes sense and whatnot, trying to build community as well. Like we're not, this is not just a come play rugby type deal. This is, Hey, you know, the world is kind of crazy right now. We want to bring as many people in and, you know, put, you know, I had to protection over people as much as possible as well with this. So, you know, we're really trying to make sure that we have the right kind of people and tools in place to make sure we get the right type of people involved. So that's your championship, man. And then hopefully some sevens. Some sevens medals coming soon. Awesome, man. And then it's the stadium, your face on the coin, all that stuff coming after. Yeah. Well, Hey, you know, I'm, I'm competitive, competitive enough to see if I can make it happen. Like I said, I might be, we might be the Davids, but I'm, I'm, I'm cool with slaying some Goliaths, you know, they know the, the, the countries in the, in the Rand knows who they are. And that's the, that's, those are the ones I'm putting on the target. They may not know me, but. We're definitely coming for those teams in my, in my, in my head. So cool, dude. This has been a great chat. Thanks for coming on me. Likewise, man. Thank you for having me, man. I appreciate it.