yes. What's going on everyone? Welcome back to the Rugby Muscle Podcast. This is our first time, I think, in 2023, which still feels weird to say, even though we're in July, it still feels weird to say that we're in 2023, which is, I mean, just a case of us being old. What the hell am I talking about? We're back doing podcasts. We're back doing interviews, and although it doesn't seem like an interview when I bring Alex on, we are gonna talk and I, we are going to have a good back and forth about some topics that have been taking up some of my brain space recently. The first one is, Alex, how you doing? Yeah, good man. Good. Just taking over as usual. Just taking over working with Kabuki's. Doing good for you. Yeah. Yeah. So we got, well at the at the lab we've got a lot of big projects start BUKI plus project, which I'll I'll probably plug later on. Have you looked? No, I'll I'll sort you out with a login, I think. Yeah. Plug plug it a little bit later. So we've got education, we've got equipment, and we've got coaching. Right? That's what you guys do. All do. That's what we do. But the education plus is just education. Maybe I'll share my screen. I'll go through it at some point later on. Ooh, interesting. So there's a little teaser. You don't have to share your screen with the, you share the screen off, off air offline. Yeah. Yeah. Sweet. We'll talk about that. But yeah. This is the Rob Nael podcast. So we are talking, we used to have that intro guy who used to tell us that we're talking everything that you need to be the ultimate rugby player that you can be. And that's still the case. It's still the case. We're still going. So we're gonna be talking about a few different things that pertain to amateur, mostly amateur rubber players, but we'll, we'll throw some professional stuff in there. And if at any point you feel like supporting the podcast, five star reviews are always appreciated. Thumbs up on the YouTube channel. Always appreciate any comments, even if it's just the algorithm or any questions for any future podcasts are encouraged below on the YouTube section. And if you want actual programming taken care of for you, rugby muscle.com is your one stop shop for all of that stuff. Okay mate. So what do we have lined up that we were gonna discuss today? Bit of an update for as far as your coaching goes. I want to know are there any freaks that you've been coaching recently? Cuz I know there have been some, but are there any yeah, so we've got. I mean to define freak, I guess we got a few world record holders that would, that would pass as freak. Yeah. Bunch of national guys. So we got, we got a team at Nationals. Right now, so USA Drug test is nationals is this week. I think we got between our guys there maybe, I dunno, above 20 world records. Oof acro across weight classes and across age groups. We should get some more national records. I suspect. I know Charlie's been benching above her world record all through her all through her prep, so that's pretty nice. We also got the girl who's coming up straight behind Charlie. She won't, she won't hit, I think Charlie did like a three 20 bench the other day. So Michelle won't hit that one, but she'll hit like two eight or something like that. She just solid right pounds. Yeah. Which is still, I mean, that's still a lot. So, so three twenty, a hundred and forty five kilos? No, 142 ish. It's around one 20 I think. Let me just, lemme do a no. 3 2 80 might be this. Look at this camera following me by the way. Oh 1 1 45. It's it's not following you bud. It did follow me. It's not gonna follow me all the way down to my charger, but, oh, okay. Yeah. Sorry. It is 1, 1 45. Okay. That's a, that's a big lift. Yeah, for like a 80 kilo woman. Yeah. That's phenomenal. So yeah. Okay. Strong people. Yeah, speaking of strong people, we've seen people getting in the gym and working their asses off for the rugby World Cup. Have you seen any of that? No, I've watched the only rugby I've really watched recently is start with Tri Nations or coordinations, I guess, and the rugby championship. Yeah. And the chief's crusade de one obvious, they always give him chiefs rugby. That was, it was a good game, man. Yeah. Yeah. So New Zealand, Zealand absolutely destroyed. Well, they destroyed him in the first half and then in the second half that I think they actually, it might have either been five or, or they might have even lost the second half, but they took or clearly took their foot off the gas. Mean your photo points at half time, right? Like there's a Yeah, but that's something that I know that the All Blacks don't do is take their, like they build up scores and then they just keep going and going and going. I mean, maybe Argentina pulled their finger out a little bit better, but Argentina's still a top class team, right? Like Argentina could win the World Cup. It's not, it's not like outta question. And then Spring box absolutely. Dicked Australia as well. Speaking of which, that's what I think about the Like, this is why actual sport is better than like power lifting and, and like how, how do I put it? Not, not, yeah, I'd say like any sort of barbell sports and strength sports, they're always like, for the most part, and especially like bodybuilding, they're, they're basically already decided who's gonna win et cetera before the event, because it's all about your training that you've put put in beforehand. And you can argue that rugby's the same, but actually, like, I mean, you could argue from a philoso, philoso philosophical standpoint that rugby's kind of the same in that Oh yeah, you know, you've done all the work and, and that's, that's what's led you to this occasion. But it is very much about performing on the day. And so I think this is, as you say, Argentina can win the World Cup. Ireland, obviously France, obviously New Zealand. And then we're looking at South Africa, definitely like. I mean those four, I think New Zealand, South Africa, Ireland, France, like those four are the front runners. And like, wouldn't be a surprise if either of those four went would win. But then you've also got potentially England, Argentina Scotland. Yeah, maybe Australia. Australia, yeah. Yeah, Australia. Like all of those teams can beat any of the others on a given day and have done previously. So it's like, it's, it's it's wide open and you're actually gua the way the the draw works, you're guaranteed one of England, Argentina, Japan, sorry. When I say one of two of, you're guaranteed. Two of these teams are gonna be in the semifinal. England, Argentina, Japan Australia, Wales, Fiji. So two of those teams are guaranteed a semi-final spot, and only two of those four that we mentioned that are sort of undeniable are gonna make the semis because of the way the groups have worked out. Yeah, there's some rough pools there, right? Yeah. There's some like, but it's not even the pools. It's like the, it's the two rough pools then face the, the winners are runners up of the two other, of the other rough pools. So it's, it's, it's interesting how it's gonna work out. But then again, then once you've made it that far, say you are England, or say you are Wales and you've made it like you, you've, you've got yourself into the quarter final, you got yourself a fairly easy quarter final that is gonna be winnable. And then it's only two more games that you, you have to actually like step up for. And like any team could do that well look at, cause you mentioned Japan right now, like I don't think Japan's gonna win a World Cup. No, but it's, they could. Yeah, they could, like, they, it wouldn't be like, say Uruguay got, got, you just wouldn't say Uruguay was this. No, but Japan, like, they've been in South Africa before and they, Japan had been in South Africa before. They've beat an Ireland before. They, and the thing with Japan, the thing with Japan and like Fiji maybe Georgia, but probably not Georgia, definitely Japan, Fiji, maybe Tonga is like the, they don't get the year round or the regularly scheduled games that the other top tier nations do. And so when the World Cup comes around, they're like more prepared than ever. You know what I mean? Yeah. And all the other teams are, but they've gone from 98% to 99%. Whereas the Fijians, the Tongans, those teams, they've gone from like 70% efficiency to like close to again to 99%. They've, they've been able to step that up. I think that makes a difference. Does it make enough difference? There we go. I finally sorted out my charger. Does it make enough of a difference to to win a World Cup or to win like those big games even then, right? Like probably not. Nah, they're, they're, 99% is probably New Zealand's 85% or whatever, but it's gonna, but it's gonna make for fun watching. Oh, for sure, man. And then if you look at like how like Fiji and Samo have done in the super rugby, like mm-hmm. They've put on some shows, man, they like, they've not won. Well, they've all, they've, but they've won some, which is enough. And that's without their, when you're looking at the, not necessarily a Sam Oh yeah. The Samoans are Pacific. Like, but you look at all of those countries and they're missing out in the super rugby with their top players that are all in France. Yeah. Yep. For sure. Man. And Japan and England. And look, and look at the reds. So Reds beat the reds. Were the only team to beat the chiefs this year. Right. Obviously Park crusaders. Mm-hmm. But in the, in the super rugby competition, And the Reds team is basically the Australia team. Yeah. So they can, they can play fuck some amazing rugby plays. So yeah, I bring it's up, up in the air, which is a good place to be. Right? It's, yeah. And, and it's such a shame for like, I feel, I, I'm feeling it for Irish fans right now because their team has just done so well for the past. I think it's like literally a year from, from now where they got spanked by New Zealand to begin to begin their New Zealand tour and you're like, oh my God, they're nowhere near as good. And then they went on or to win that tour, then they were undeniable in the autumn and then they went on, won the Grand Slam and now you're thinking, man, this team is on fire. Yet they're still gonna meet either the All Blacks or France in their quarter final, I mean, unless Italy do something ridiculous, but Yeah. Or have either the All Blacks or France. And so then you're thinking, crap, they're just going to, like, that's tough for them just to beat, to get out. Even, even get out of the quarters. Yeah, I know. But again, if they have a good show in at the World Cup, they'll be considered the best Irish team ever. Yeah. I mean, no Irish team has ever made it past the quarter final, so, right. But then that's, but like, that's the annoy that's the tough thing. That's why I say about like, the competition is truly the, the, the thing here is like, Ireland have done so well up until this point, but they could also just go down in the quarter finals that like, and it wouldn't even be that surprising, like, that's insane. Like how dominant you are, doesn't matter. Cuz they've been really dominant up until this point. They've done everything right, man. Crazy. Who, who do you think is gonna win? Can you, can you, can I get you to actually put your, your name to a team? I mean, yeah, I, I don't, I don't enough, I've not watched enough rugby to really have a good opinion. No, I mean, I would like, I mean, I'd like to see New Zealand or Ireland win. I think, I think that'd be the best. I think New Zealand need it to sustain like that all black name cuz they just not being as good in the last couple of years. Right. Which I mean, which is really harsh when you consider not being as good because the previous decade, they've been the most dominant team in the history of international sport. So to say they're not as good is is harsh. Like, I mean, but it's also, it's also, but it's also true. Yeah. Yeah. So like what rank in New Zealand now? Like third, fourth probably, yeah. Yeah. New Zealand. Look it, I, new Zealand's a third right now. Ireland, France, New Zealand, South Africa and Scotland. Geez. Yeah. So like how long, like you, I just like the name of New Zealand being the top rugby team just feels like it's the right place for 'em to be. Well yeah. Right. So anything other than dominant and first is, is not good enough for New Zealand. Yep. I bet if you asked the All Blacks they'd say the same. Yeah, yeah. Like and all Yeah, the New Zealand public, which is like eventually that's, that's gonna go, I mean it has to, right? Yeah. I just don't want it to, I just, I just kinda like it. I like the fairytale. Oh, okay. So you like dominant team, like you, you like man city as well then? I mean, even though you don't like football, you got your point. Yeah, I don't know. I dunno, I dunno enough. Mate, you got a cheer for the underdog, so, but I, I guess in World Cup terms, I New Zealand, well, they're no longer that they were until 2011 when they won it and then they won it again in 2015. They weren't that dominant. No. And then you had Dan, Dan Carter kind of team, didn't you? Mm-hmm. I was looking back at two 20 and nine all Blacks team the other day, just so I was watching like the all backs best tr best tries year by year and between like oh nine and oh maybe 15. Like they would just have such a good team. Just, just incredible. Yeah. Anyway, so you, you, you, you are thinking New Zealand, your heart is saying New Zealand, which is Yeah. Weird. You don't want England to win, mate. Yeah, I couldn't care less. Yeah. Yeah. So if England play New Zealand, I'll, I'll be there to support rugby. Yeah. Yeah. You're not, you're not bothered about it. No. But if England, if New Zealand are play other teams and if England are playing again, you're just there to support rugby, which means you kind of cheer for New Zealand cuz they're that good. Yeah. I mean I don't want south to win. It's just Africans are so hard to deal with, like when they're winning. That's, that's the only thing. Yeah, that's, did you see, did you see Dika Stui on the weekend by any chance? No. Do you even know who that is? Nope. He's a UFC fighter. He's gonna be, he's basically like, south Africans that are listening to this are, are probably keen on him now because he's like their guy. He's gotta be their, he must be their only guy, actually. I think they've got maybe one other guy that's in the ufc. But he's basically, if you just took like the sort of template for a a, a Dutch South African Oh, like, and said, right, you're gonna go into ufc, he's that. He's just fucking hard man. He's just hard. And he's he's a middleweight and he is just, that's it. He just hits like a truck, got a hell of a jaw, and he's tough. He doesn't look like the most technical, which again, Kind of South African, right? Like not the most, technically not a very finesse fighter, but man, he hits like a ton of bricks and he is gonna fight. I think he's gonna fight Israel Atia for the middleweight strap. Good luck to him. Yeah. But like his whole, I mean, anyways, that's by, by South Africa. I like the way South Africa play rugby though, to be fair. They, because they can finesse it, their backs are getting more and more 0.0. But they don't come all the way from 11, just absolutely dominant forwards. Well, they've got, they've got like three little Arran say, I'm gonna forget the other guy's name. And Colby, they've got like three tiny wingers that are all on point, which is the new in thing for, for world rugby. I mean, I mean, Shane Williams did it first, but, you know, that's by the, by. He did do it first, but then since then you've got him, you've got who's the little one for New Zealand? The Fijian. The Fijian. Yeah. I don't know, but I was gonna say ne him on acu. He was pretty little. He had to say that same like Yeah. Yeah. Idea of just amazing. Like te he was around for about a year. Yeah. He blew out his knee or something, didn't he? He was just being injury prone. Anyway, pop the name of the Fijian New Zealand. Why, why have I space on his name? He's, he's very good. And then you've got the, there's a little one for France as well. Each team now is starting to get that little, that little winger that's being dominant. Yeah, I can see that. That's a, that's a different problem to sort of, especially with these, these, like how low you've gotta tackle. You're always just gonna get stuck. Yeah. That's a big deal, right? I think so. Fair. That's one of my predictions for the World Cup. There's gonna be at least one game where a red card doesn't necessarily ruin it, but then it, it is always gonna make you question. Ah, is that, like, would that team have won? Like you look at the Red Roses in the Women's World Cup, right? Like they lost by a score and they had 14 players on the pitch for over an hour of the game, I think. Yeah. It was something like that, wasn't it? I mean, it's the same as look at Look Back, world Cup finals New Zealand, France. Yeah. Right. That was a one referee decision, which changed the game, I guess you could say. I mean, that, that, I mean, yeah. So I think that's more likely to happen now than ever. And, and then, yeah, like I was about to say, oh, you win, but you don't really feel like you won't, but you of course you're still gonna feel it. Like New Zealand didn't. Yeah. The black fans weren't like, ah, we only played 14. They were like, yes, we beat. I think that's what you were gonna counter to. Like England, that England team were the most dominant, they were more dominant than the All Blacks were. Yeah. More winning, I guess is what it was. Maybe more, definitely more winning. They were more winning in a shorter time span. I think that that All Blacks team for about a decade. Were still way more winning, if that makes sense. Yeah. Probably depends. Depends how you, when you start. Yeah, exactly. That, that's what I mean by like just sheer dominance. Yeah. Anyways let's switch gears. So you, you, you're going from your heart says New Zealand. What does your, what does your brain say? What do you think? Actually, probably South Africa. I one team you have not mentioned is France. It's in France. I've watched enough Northern hemisphere. I'm not, I'm not watched enough Northern Hemisphere rugby. I don't, I don't feel like I'm qualified to talk about it Coast Don, I Oh, okay. It's mate, this French team. If you're gonna watch what, like, I spoiler, I think I'm gonna predict, I'm gonna do a video predict in the World Cup. But I think the French are gonna go, this is the year, like you say, you want a good team, like to represent rugby and whatnot, like France for how good they, like how many players and how much of a stamp they have on like world rugby. Like everyone knows the French, they've not won a single World Cup. You know, in fact, the Northern Hemisphere has, has won one World Cup in the, what has there been? Nine World Cups, I want to say. Yeah. Nine World Cups. Nine World Cups. One team from the Northern Hemi Hemisphere has won it and they've won it once. That is, that is ridiculous. That's just some bad stats in there. So I want, yeah, I, I'm, I'm gunning for a Northern Hemisphere team. I think it's, I, I'd like it to be England to be fair, but I don't see that. I, I think it's gonna be France. I think it's gonna be France. It could be Ireland. But it could also be the other two teams that we mentioned. I don't, I don't see, like I see the, I see that it is possible that any of those other teams can do it, but I think that the other four, those that four are by far the favorites. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I, I don't see anyone other than them winning, but yeah, so I, I've been looking at a lot of their training and I've been thinking like, like it, one of my new favorite hobbies is going on the England Instagram actually comes up at the top of my feed when I, when I sign into the, at Robbie Muscle account, one of the, the things that happens every time is the top of my feed. It's an England rugby post and it's something about their training, usually about the gym. And so I go straight to the comments, I go straight to the comments cuz it is fantastic viewing. They get one guy, you know, it could be a really good squat or it could be a bicep session. It could be them doing sprints, it could be them doing rowing. Yeah. Whatever it is. The, the, the two of the first three comments are people bitching about it, oh, you should be doing more on a rugby pitch. Or, or, oh that forms crap. These boys are gonna hurt themselves. Or What are they doing biceps for? That's not functional. And you're just thinking, like I say, two outta, the three comments are negative. A hundred percent of the comments that are negative are from like accounts that are definitely not available to the public and accounts of people that are definitely not actually experts. Yeah, I could believe that. I think, I can't imagine anyone who is an expert or at least recognize being like even caring that much. Well, it's also not being objective enough in their own thinking to like understand that there's something to be learned from the top level. Yeah. Like teams, you know, it's ridiculous. Yeah. So like, actually let's go straight from that. We'll, we'll, we'll touch more on like pros and stuff in a bit. Mm-hmm. But I want to know if, speaking of like lessons that you should be learning, what have you changed your mind about this year? Oh, within, within the realm of training. So, or what, maybe it can be like, I've had a cop out a few times where I've asked myself, what is it that I've learned this year? And my learning is that I've been, I should back myself more that I'm, I, I don't, don't need to like keep questioning myself and trying to learn other things. Actually what I've got is a good, solid base and I'm doubling down on, that's yours. That's important lesson. I'll tell you what I did this year, which I think you might have done as well this year, which I previously thought was shit. And I went into it with a different expected outcome, which was a German volume. German volume train. Okay. So when I think of during volume training previously I've been like, this is a fucking terrible idea. Okay. Yeah. Cuz cuz the volume's insane. Okay. And you're not going to put too much strength on, but I went into it this time cause I was looking for a way to build cap polarization. Mm-hmm. And to expend some calories and basically using it as an aerobic tool basically, or a, not even a cardio tool, but to do some very specific aerobic adaptations. Mm-hmm. And it worked fantastically. It was really, really effective for that. So maybe like not writing off something which, like, someone like that, which looks dumb on the surface, but maybe using it another way has been super effective. Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more. Like I, I used, I haven't used German volume training this year, but I've done, I, I think I used it last year. If not, I definitely used it the year before. Because I remember using it year before and for the same, same thing, right? It's like one of those things I, I have switched from traditional German volume training when I'm doing this stuff to two different protocols that I like to do. And actually I've been programming in quite a lot recently is 30 30, which is like a Pat Davidson thing. Again, like talking about the aerobic properties of the muscle. And it's weird that you can actually get with this sort of like low, low loads training relatively, you can get really good adaptations and it actually does, it's, it sounds too good to be true. And if you think about it, it kind of is, but you get fitness, you get muscle growth, and you get strength potential all from this one protocol in an efficient manner in a short period of time. The reason it is too good to be true is that you think, oh my God, I'm gonna do all these things. I'm gonna be jacked and ripped and, and really fit within six weeks. And it doesn't quite work like that. You know, like you get small benefits in lots of different areas efficiently, but you don't get as good a benefit as like a real proper, smart, dedicated, hyper trophy program or a real proper smart, dedicated fitness program, et cetera, et cetera. But you get 80% of them of all those different areas in the same period of time. And so if you just keep chipping away, 80%, and this is, this is probably the lesson I've learned is like 80 to 90 and I say, you know, the 80 20 rule for, for training, it's actually more like 90 to 95, 10 to five, nowhere near as catchy. So that's why it doesn't catch on. But like that's the rule of training. If I can get 80 to 90% of the benefits to 95% of the benefits, like. That getting those ex, the, the every, every little extra percentage benefit is exponentially more time, which can then actually be spent on other areas. And that's, that's something I've doubled down for myself. So I only hit the weights twice a week at the minute, and I have been for months. Because I've realized that's easily enough and I'm still progressing, like to, to do anymore isn't actually gonna give me it, it might gimme 5% extra benefit, but it's gonna, I'm gonna have to invest 50% more time to do another session. You know what I mean? That's ridiculous. So why would I, like you wouldn't make that trade off in, in other situations yet. People go to the gym six days a week, sometimes more than once a day. And I think is that worth the trade off even for bodybuilders where your only goal is to get as big a like as possible? Is that really worth the trade off? Yeah. Why not? Right. Basically. Yeah. Like I, I have a world champion to go to a gym three times a week. Yeah. And it's all about, it's about like long term, you know, like, yeah, you go three times a week and they go, you know, they'll, they'll, they'll not go for one of those weeks every three to six months and they stay consistent. And it's not even about like the consistency of hitting the gym, it's also the consistency of the work done. They don't have that as many bad days, et cetera. Which like they con consistently progress. Which perfectly leads us onto another question I had for you or a topic I wanna discuss is, you love your measurements and you love the progressions. How do those two interlink and why are they so important? So how the interlinks really interesting. So if we, firstly, it depends what you're talking about in terms of what you're progressing. Yep. Right? So if say you are progressing for power competition movements, well, there's only a couple of ways to really progress that, right? Cause the competition movement in its in its kind of specificity is just one rev done the competition environment. Yep. Right? So the only real way of changing that is to ad load or take load off, I guess. Okay. You could look at, do a couple of different ways of looking to introduce force, but that's kind of what power thing is. Now, if you're looking at accessory movements, what you're actually then looking at is what's the goal of the block? Is it hypertrophic? Is it work capacity, is it strength? And then you can look at that and go, okay, well what's hypertrophic is c de ization of muscle fiber. So then you're looking at, okay, well how do I make this. Progression. Have enough stimulus to cause de oxidization or Yeah. Decrease oxygen, saturate saturation within the muscle, mm-hmm. And use as high force or tension as possible. Okay. Now if you have that structure in place, so we're saying, okay, I, I have this list of exercises that I think are gonna gradually increase the amount of tension and force within the muscle. Unless you're measuring that kind of force progression, I guess you could say. So how much weight you're using, you never really know when to change it. Yes. Cause the point you, the point you change is when you stop having a stimulus. Right? Yeah. Does that make sense? So, mm-hmm. For example, go goblets was like, how, how I will a guy you strong he'll, like, he'll have a state championship this October. I assume unless there's smoke of freak coming. True. But he should win the state championships this year. And he has like a 210 pound goblet squats in it. Right. Uhhuh. Which is fucking insane. Yeah. And he's been doing goblet squats for maybe, I don't know, 16, 17 weeks, because he's just keeps getting better and better and better. And as his a goblet squad goes up, his back squat goes up. That's nice. It's amazing, right? Like it's just such like a, just a gold movement for him for some reason. So there's no need to change it. Like why, why would I have him do anything more challenging than the goblet squad? But do I need to have him do riff? Like, I love this answer so much. So like when you are measuring, it's not to make sure that you're progressing more so it's to. See that you, whether you are progressing or not, and if you are progressing, like just cuz working hard in training, you should, like, you shouldn't have to push yourself. I mean, you should always have to push yourself, but you shouldn't have to look at the numbers and say, oh, I've gotta beat that number. Right? Rather, you should always be working hard and if your numbers are going up, you don't need to do more. This goes back to the two weight training sessions a week. You know, like, I see my numbers progressing. I see like things going in the, the way that they want to, they, they need to be going. I don't need to add an extra 50% se of, of workload on top to, to eke out any more progression. I, I'm happy with progressing, whereas a lot of people, I think, and, and this happens, I, I think just, it does happen quite a lot with hypertrophy, but it happens a lot with fitness as well. They, they just want to push themselves as hard as they can and they're not, Sure how to verifiably confirm that they're getting better. You know what I mean? Yeah. Dude. With hypertro it's really difficult cause you don't really have a direct measurement. You can, you can go have like fi first order measurements where you like second order measurements you like, I can't really measure my muscle. We tweak. Yeah. That's just, it's kind of dumb. Right. But if your eight rep max is going up, or your average, like, well, I use a lot is average percentage loads of a session. Mm-hmm. So say, say I've got someone doing lunges. I, I do, I use a lot of lunges and training. Like I use more split starts work and bilateral work for all my listers. If the percentage, the average percentage that they're using over the weeks is going up, I just leave it. Even if they're doing like a ramping set or something like that. And like some of less sets larger than somerset's heavier or we start, they overshot the first set. I never got weight. Don't care. Well, as long as the average is going up. Cuz that's important. Right. Percentage compared to their one rep max. Yeah. Yeah. So like yeah, just average weight. Yeah. This is with the average loads of the bar as long as the average load and the bar is going up. Okay. Yeah. Well average total volume as well. Right? Because it's like, and that's weird where like they say, oh, you've got a, and I've, you know, I've been guilty of saying it like, for to increase your muscle, you've gotta consistently ov like you've gotta keep progressing volume. Actually that takes care of itself. And I think this is, that was a big in influence from like Mike Tel where he would always be like questioning whether you can escalate your sets. But as we've already like sort of alluded to, if you are progressing and you're getting better, like the weight is adding up is is getting higher. Or the reps are going higher, you are. That means you're already progressing volume by default. So you wanna actually find what is a good amount of volume and rather than progress it just stay there, just stay there and keep progressing and getting better for as long as you can. You don't necessarily have to go faster or harder or, or anything like that because the body does that anyway because of the processes that you are pushing for by training. Well, yeah. Look at like how does, how does hypertro work, right? Or how does, how does training work? You, you apply stimulus and that stimulus causes a gene to be expressed in a certain way. Right. And all you need to do is enough training to get that gene expression on. Mm-hmm. Understand. So like, you don't need, you don't need time off that you don't really need deloads. As long as you are in a place where you're not getting like contra indicative gene expression. Does that make sense? I know it sounds, I know a bit, a bit technical. No, no. Yeah. But like the, the idea that we have super compensation theory is kind of gone now. We're, we're talking about, Hey, how can I best get a gene to express the, the, the factors needed for hypertrophy? Yeah. Super compensation is actually just like compensation and you've just gotta let Yeah. Get rid of all that fatigue that's masking. Like, or I mean, yeah, you've already got, get rid of the fatigue that's masking and fitness or you can just not let that fatigue be there in the first place. Yeah. Like, which is what you're alluding to. Yeah. Yeah. So trap house and with that, like we, we've touched on like why it's important for progression. I want to touch on. Different ways that you can progress. So we've said like, if you find that sneaky way to consistently get stronger, just find, find your nice little rep range, find your nice amount of volume and just let that take care of itself. How do we get there? So you're talking about how you how do you know it's going well? Yeah. Geez. So we're saying, I'm not quite sure not, not even that, like, like how, how do we, how do we set it up? Cause I, cuz a few, cause I keep getting questions now about like, oh, how do I, like, how do I progress my lift, you know, and a whatever lift. And like, I'm like, dude, there are so many different ways that you can progress a lift. And in fact, I, I can, I'm probably, I've, this is all my mind because I've been working on a video that's gonna come up about. Like how to progress your training, like specifically for strength and how many different ways there are. But how do you, how do you find that area or how, like, or you can just name me different ways of progression, right? So you can, you've got double progression, et cetera, et cetera. Oh, shit. You wanna get that? Okay. So, so you're talking about program theory? Yeah. More than anything else. Okay. Shit. That's too complicated. Let's just go for ways we can do it. So obviously you have different metrics which cause changes. So you have different, different stimuli, right? Mm-hmm. So we just measure those, like you have intensity, right? So, which is basically how much force you're producing. Then force is, is, is mass on deceleration for the most part, right? So it's two options even move the same way faster or. Move a heavier weight at same speed, preferably. Mm-hmm. Right Now that, that comes down to what you wanna actually get out of your training. If, if rate of force development is a bigger interest to you than say, maximal strength, then you have your answer there. Right. Then you have density of work. Okay. Which is how much work you do over time. You have work capacity, which is how much, how, this is a weird one. We'd probably say average heart rate over a session, right? Yeah. So if you have, how hard that work is for you to do. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. That's one. Volume obviously is an easy one, which sets times, reps, times like distance, moved times weight. Mm-hmm. I guess. Mm-hmm. Have I missed any so far? Don't, not that I can think of. Frequency, I guess you could look at. But frequency's a weird one because you, you want to, you scheduling is probably a better. Reason to change frequency then? Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. I, I don't like progressing via frequency at all. I don't think that's a, yeah. The only, the only time I progress by frequency is if we can't progress in the other way. Or, or like life just allows it, you know, like, I wouldn't even call that progressing. I would like you say it, I would just call that a different difference in scheduling. I think that doesn't, like, I think the, the most important one actually that we haven't touched on, and the most important thing for progression, and this is something that people ignore, is technique, right? Mm-hmm. I say this because like, this is probably, if I look back over my lifting career, probably my biggest error in my lifting is I would force progression via getting worse technique, which means actually we're not forcing progression at all. Actually, what me we're doing is we're changing. The, the measurements, because we're me, what we're measuring or what we measured last week. Say we do one squat for a set of five reps, 120 kilos, just for example, right? That was last week. Okay, this week I've gotta beat that. I go in and do 125 kilos for five reps. That squat form is significantly worse or it's just different, right? It's just not as good. Like there's more rounding of the back. Maybe the bar goes at the same speed, maybe the bar goes slower. Those are two different lifts now. So we haven't progressed from 120 to 125. What we've done is we've just done two different movements and yes, we've managed to add load to the bar, but it's not as what we would hoped. And I think a lot of people get caught in that, where they're trying to potentially rush, quote unquote progression by adding load to the bar or by forcing out extra reps that aren't quite there. And what they've done is just compromised their, their, their technique, and now they're trying to increase. That progression or increase the work that they're doing from an already compromised technical standpoint. So you've already come away from your non-negotiable, which should be to have pristine form of every rep of every excise that you do. Pretty much. I'm gonna, I'm gonna say something you probably haven't heard before, or maybe you haven't, I'm not too sure. But when, say you have a squad and you're gonna miss a rep, what's the normal point of failure? Lower. Cause it is gonna be applicable. Okay, sweet. So we're not saying it's weak quads, we're saying it's the compensation point. So you fail a movement, not when the muscle you want to use is too weak, but it's when the compensatory factors is too weak. Mm-hmm. Okay. So it's changing from like the goal movement into the compensation movement and then that is kind of falling apart. All the energy systems aren't developed enough to do the movements. Okay. So. Yeah, you are right in saying like, say for a squat, if someone's changing the movement, like they're, they're doing a different lift, basically. But we can also look at it in a point of, Hey, we're wanting to train the compensatory factors. So when you're looking at say, exercise development for rugby mm-hmm. What, what's and maybe we're talking about making a tackle or scrummaging, we're looking at the compensation factor as being the deviation of a defamation of the body in contact. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That, that's the winning factor of collision. Right? Right. Who basically forms the least. Yeah. So if, if you, you'll have like your ideal way of doing it, then you'll have the way you compensate for being tackled. Mm-hmm. If you're gonna fix those compensation factors, you're gonna get more out of your ability to do the other things really well. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. More to stay in the good, good positions. So I would come. Ve more towards that kinda idea that, yeah, you're doing different lift and it's maybe not applicable, but do we even really care about what a lift is, or do we care about fixing the things which are gonna matter in the competition? Well, what I would argue is that, like, for that, if we're, if we're trying to like progress strength and we're, we're choosing the squat in order to progress your strength, then we need to make sure that they're still, like, you still squat well enough, like, rather than actually add load to the bar. You just keep that same, keep the movement the same and increase that speed and you don't, like, you don't hit the point of failure, right? Or you don't change a technique because of a fear of failure. In fact, you should have, like, it's better off to stay with in not necessarily a comfort zone, but in a zone of technique. That you are good enough to continually improve upon rather than try to improve too fast and then change that technique. You understand what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. So we, you've probably come back to that 80 20 principle, right? If it is 80% good, then you're probably okay. Yes. Yeah, I, I would agree on that. But that's the problem is that it gets to the point where, so maybe the 125 kilo isn't, isn't the issue, right? That week two isn't the issue. The issue is week three or week four, where now we're at a sticking point because we've compromised our technique even more. So we have to continually compromise our technique. And now we're working kind of like, for layman's terms, too hard, you know, and we're not able to actually continue to progress. Which I think we can go, I, I wanna talk more about more, actually, we can leave methods of progression to a, to another. For another podcast or even something and a video that I'll do individually. But this leads me up perfectly onto like why I've seen that pros don't lift as much. When we're looking at pro rugby players, like there are some lifts that are exceptionally heavy. If you look at Andrew Porter, I think he did, I think it was 280 for a set of eight recently. What, what lift squat, like, well, it says, it says free, was it three 50? I think, I think he did. You put Andrew Porter squat? I think he lifted 350 kilos back in school, which I'll come back to. But the fact that, like, you see most, you, you, it's rare, like you're impressed by the, some of the numbers that these guys are lifting, but it's not, it's nothing compared to like top power lifters. You look at the rowers like. Charlie s is, Rome was ridiculous. He did under 30 seconds, he got 200 meters, which is like, geez, impress. Yeah. That is like impressive some effort. And, and then, and then even then, like that's when I go back to the Instagram thing, one of the top comments was, oh his like, give me four weeks with this guy and his Ryan technique will be better. It's just like, yeah, craziness. But the point being, there are some, like when you consider, and this is when they become impressive, is when you consider that these guys are not barbell athletes. They're not gym athletes. Yes, they are like physical specimens. And you are going to see that and it's gonna show itself in the gym. But actually what these guys are doing is actually just preparing themselves to play rugby. And when you look at some of the numbers and like, especially when you look at some of the All Blacks lifting, like. I think they do it like they put some of the camera angles on 'em so that they don't ever really reveal, like them lifting the, like, the weight that they're lifting. Leave it to like, people thinking, ah, wow, these guys are so strong and, and, and le that like to the imagination, but they're never lifting that much, like relatively, but what they're always doing is lifting with like, good technique or like you say, a 20 good enough technique and good speed. I never see. Yeah. Like if you go to American college sports, you see people grinding the hell out of their lift with like a hundred people, like blowing horns behind their back and then screaming at 'em and stuff. You don't see that with these guys, right? Yeah. It's cuz they got jobs to do. Right. They, they doesn't, they're not doing it to measure their dick. They're doing it to support their actual pay work. They're not even doing it. Yeah. And they're not even doing it to, at this point. Like Andrew Porter, this is where I go back to his lift as he did a 350 kilo back squat. Apparently like in school I think, or as part of under twenties, he's completed the back squat as far as being the best rugby player. Yeah. He can be as concerned. And we go back to what I said before is in order to get a 360 kilo back squat, that's not only like gonna take so much time, but all of that time is potentially taken away from other areas that he can improve as a rugby player. Right. All he needs to do, like as far as muscle growth and strength concerned is maintained. He doesn't need to get stronger. Like there, there is no need whatsoever. So all he needs to do in the gym for the most part is just maintenance, and that requires like minimal amount of work maintenance as far as like. His heavy compound lift goes. Yeah. Then he needs to keep himself as injury free as possible. That's what his work is gonna be to towards any imbalances, any strength deficits that are there, that are like ruining ahead. Focus on that. And then speed, speed, speed, speed, speed, speed, speed. Yeah. I, I totally agree. Like they're doing an exercise to be better at rugby. Not, I mean, do, no, no one needs a three 50 kilo squad. No one, no one needs that. Right. And so you, you see a lot of these weights going up and you see a lot of the sessions that these boys are doing and they're like, particularly at this time when they're, you know, oof, like less than two months away from a World Cup, they're foc like getting a 10 kilo increase on their back squat again. The amount of work that they need to do to increase that back squat by 10 kilos is gonna just take away from. Their job of being the best rugby players because they're gonna have to do some real tough sessions out on the pitch, and that's where they want like their returns. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Oh, I thought you were gonna have some, a lot more input on that topic as far as like, I mean, I can talk about it in terms of like exercise selection and why, why you would wouldn't do it. Like does he even still back squat? Probably not. Like, no. What are we putting a barbell on his back? I doubts it. If he is, he's a prop, right? His shoulders don't need that. No, he's probably not even back squatting. He's probably doing a safe squat. Or I, I would potentially argue that, that he is back squatting because he's already so good at it that like he could just maintain, I think the, the recent video of him is him repping out like sets of eight two, I don't know if it was two 80 or maybe it was just 200 kilos. Just 200 kilos, but like that's still strong enough for him as a prop in at the top highest level of rugby. So he doesn't need to do it anymore. So he just needs to continue to maintain it. And at this point in, especially in the gym, as far as we're looking at general strength, general aerobic stuff, like that's gonna be all taken care of at this point. Right? Any increases in this stuff isn't, isn't going to make the difference come the World Cup. The things that are gonna make the difference come the World Cup are their ability to execute under pressure, their ability to execute in general, which like is gonna influence their ability to execute under pressure. Their knowing each other under pressure, their ability to play together, like that's it. And that's all of their work is gonna be down to those things like the game of rugby. Maybe you can, I mean, I dunno how much extra there. If, if there are any physical components that they do want to improve, it's gonna be. Like the, the rarity, but the working on that lactic acid system, potentially a lally that can make small improvements and speed, like those are only the only things and those need to be trained because they're a lot more difficult to maintain if you aren't continually training them. Yeah, absolutely. We can talk, talk about the the rubbing guy, the point, so if someone's saying like, Hey, give him four weeks to me, I'll make him better rubbing, absolutely. Defeats the point of it. You want him to be a shift. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. Because you want him to try, like, you want, you want a measurement of, of actual like dis brute, regular brute force. You don't want him to be more efficient assets. Right. And in many ways that goes back to our prog, like our topic on progression. Right? Like if he then gets faster on the rower because he is improved technique. Great. But that hasn't improved his VO two max. Yeah. That hasn't improved his, like, his ability to, or it wouldn't even be VO two max, but it wouldn't improve his him conditioning wise for the game of rugby. Yeah. But flip that on its head, improving your technique in lifts potentially can like improve you because number one, it can improve your absolute load, which is still going to improve your strength in some manner. And number two, improve improving your movement Quality also has, its, has its benefits. And I think those are two things that people m like get conflated when they're talking about, like, you know, do make this subtle change to your bench press to add 20 pounds in in two weeks. You know, there's, there is something to that, but it's not what you think it is. Yeah. I mean it, what you're saying is you want to be applying right. Stimuli, right? Mm-hmm. And the goal of lifting is to use the most weight. For the most part. Right? Well, the goal, like the stimulus of being better at running around on a field is just have better capacity. Yeah. Not to be, and that's the stimulus you wanna do. You wanna be for cardio, for, for non-specific cardio, you wanna be as inefficient as possible. Yeah, definitely. Nice. What else did we have to discuss? I stuck it in the chat. Huh? I stuck it in the chat. Oh, our little chat. Sorry. I, I how do I find that top right? No, where's that? I know what you're talking about. This is a new, ah, there we go. Da da da. All right, let's round out this progression chat and sweet. So this whole area of strength and conditioning and why, like me, and you could talk about this forever, because of like, there's so much nuance and there's so many different ways that you can go around with this nuance, right? So we, we've, we've tried to distill our thoughts as to like how, and, and, and why to progress and how and why to measure. But at the end of the day, all you have to do is rationally think about what you want to improve upon, make sure that you are improving that thing and keep doing that, you know, and eventually you are gonna hit some level of plateau and that's okay. Think of a new way that, that you can improve it. You know, take, maybe you are just fatigued, so washer, rinse, and repeat. Maybe you are just that advanced that it takes longer to improve than, than you'd hope so, right? So if you are someone that's. Trying to progress your squat and you're already squatting 200 kilos, maybe you just have to sit at that 200 kilos for a month or you know, and actually go down because of a fatigue, et cetera. Or maybe even more than a month. Maybe it takes three months and then you add five kilos. That's a good win. And that's still progressing. It's just really slow. And sometimes that's, that's what it takes, which is why we change the movements that we do, because that's just frustrating. Right. Why could have five kilos on my squat and a mon, I'd be stoked. You know what I mean? But like, it, it rather, so then rather than just do that and, and sort of hit your head against a brick wall for six months, say you get five kilos in six months, why not change that movement? See progression in other movements for a, for a bit, and then you come back to your squat. Yes. Technically you're weaker cuz you're untrained. And then, but then you get stronger. And you get stronger and you actually surpass your previous best. Not because of what you've just done with the squat, but because of what you've done over the previous six months. Oh, for for sure. Like I haven't back sported, I squat, I back sported for the first time three weeks ago in almost two years. Uhhuh and week weak rent or low numbers. So embarrassingly weak. Yeah, but that's just because you're untrained, that's not because you've necessarily gotten weaker at the squat and, and actually what will happen is over the, well, if you do eventually start hitting it again, eventually what you'd like to see is you get stronger and actually see that lift go up. Yep. Likewise. This is where this whole conversation comes. Full circle and wraps, ties in perfectly. And this is me putting the little cute little boat on the top of this. Right. Likewise, if you are preparing to be the best rugby player that you can be, You want to attack your strength movements. You want to attack mobility mobility. You wanna attack hypertrophy, yeah, you do wanna attack mobility, but not in this instance. You wanna attack hypertrophy, you wanna attack the different things that you can do in the weight room, continually improve those. And eventually, right, you're gonna see yourself get better on the rugby pitch as a result. But it's not, it's not gonna be direct, it's not gonna be, okay, I squatted 180 kilos six months ago now I'm squatting 200 kilos. Oh, I'm so much better on the pitch straight away. No, it's, it takes its time and you've, you've got to then utilize how that physical preparation has allowed you the potential to be a better rugby player. And there's gonna be points like where we are right now with these international teams where the physical preparation is, is almost done in, in many ways, right? It's, it's, it's, we're adding the little cherries on top to those. The, the real preparation is now grinding out on the pitch as hard as you, you know, not as hard as possible, but as as physically like that's your, that's your main focus physically and everything else is just geared support towards support in that. Which means that you're not gonna lift all the weights in the gym and that's also okay. I wonder there's information anywhere about people back squatted versus Troy scored. No. That'd be cool to have. I'd be interested if there's anything I thought, I thought you were going. Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. That's not recorded anywhere. You know why? Cuz it's a useless stat. Cause it's not gonna, there's not gonna be a correlation with that. There's just not. Yeah. Anyway, wonder if you could find something like that and be like, Hey, if this lift goes up, that they score more tries. Yeah. You, you'd be a millionaire. Well, there's even gonna be like a point where I think the biggest correlation is gonna be speed and tries scored and it's gonna be, it's gonna be like a a positive trend, but it's still only gonna be a trend. Like you are gonna get people that are slow as fuck, that score loads of tries. You're also gonna get people that are rapid, that still never made it. Like you look at, like, I think a good example is when you look at Perry Baker versus Carlin Isles, right? Carl and Isles undeniably faster than Perry Baker, but better rugby player. Perry Baker, like a hundred times out of a hundred almost like, like Con has that X factor because of his speed. Barry Baker didn't have as much speed but made himself basically the best sevens player in the world because he applied that speed to him being a rugby player. And maybe that's cuz of other physical components, but more so it's just because. He actually ended up like showing, showing out more on the pitch. And we don't know what that process was that allowed him to do that. I I ran a regression, I I doing a lot of statistics as well at the moment. I ran a regression, which took a lift has change in weight class over time compared to their wilkes or dots, which is basically the, the relationship between weight and the weightlifters. Like pound for pound. Yeah. Basically pound, pound. So I do people, people up and down weight classes versus their pound for pound performance. Mm-hmm. No correlation at all. Like, oh really? People went up or down. Yeah. You, cause you expect people to get up weight class because they're getting stronger. Right? They're getting bigger, they getting stronger. Mm-hmm. No, they don't. Just nothing. No relationship at all. Now I thought that people said that the Wilke score, maybe I, maybe I'm thinking of something else, but I always thought that the Wilt score was, tend to be biased towards the bigger people anyway. The way it was worked out. So Wolf score had like a, a u curve where uhhuh it, it was barred between the extremes, uhhuh. So if you weighed like 300 kilos and squatted like your body weight, it would still give you a, a higher WIL score and a, a middleweight squatted from kilos. It was, it was really broken. Mm-hmm. Which is why that's interesting. So, so what you're saying is like, just get stronger don't down weight classes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't, don't drop a weight class. It doesn't make any better. Ah, so this is people changing their weight class. Yeah. So this was something I wanted to touch on. I wanted to wrap this podcast up, but we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll keep, we'll go down this little rabbit hole real quick. Right. Something I see a lot of also is or I don't see a lot of, is when we talk about this training efficiently and we talk about. Like the way I'm saying about, you know, you only need to go to the gym and lift weights two to three times a week or whatever. The people that are lifting six to eco extra benefits, they're not gonna get the extra benefits manifest in them actually being bigger than if they train themselves two to three times a week consistently. Because the biggest factor that governs all of this stuff is gonna be your genetics. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And so it's like going six times a week. Yet, I mean it, I, no, I don't think it's actually gonna make that much of a, more of a difference compared to going three times a week. It's just you can at least then tell yourself, Hey, I put everything into this. I can now just blame my genetics that I'm small. You know what I mean? But well, like that's kind of how it has to work. People don't want to stomach that, so they wanna say, okay, actually I need to go five times a week. Nah, totally. Yeah. I mean, so. You know, you know what I'm saying? Like, but I think that's just the way the fitness culture is. Like Dorian Yates, look how big that bloke was. I think he only trained four days a week, something like that. Yeah. And he was Olympia, right? Like literally the biggest leanest person you could imagine. Yeah. Like, yeah, it's, well it goes back to that genetic expression, right? Do enough work to get your genes to express something if you're just not built to have that expression. Or is this too difficult to do? You're fucked. You can't force it. And in fact, even then your time is better spent finding something that your genes are better built to express. So still only go to the gym two to three times a week. And maybe you're actually, maybe you're, you are someone that should, is going to actually be someone that's really fit or fast and explosive or MO mobile or skills, or tactically better or now you've freed up all this time to work on those things. Freaks are gonna freak no matter what. You can't force a freak. Yeah, mate. Just eSports. That's the future. Fucking yeah, mate, on that. You've, I was wondering how we were gonna wrap this up. You've nailed it. Go do eSports plug your kabuki stuff, man. Yeah. So you'll find us over at edgy plus dot kabuki strength or search kabuki education. This new site is, is honestly, it's fucking amazing. There's over a thousand like educational and exercise videos on there. What can we expect alone? Pardon me? What can you expect? Do the, the go from like strength stuff through, we have like a whole nutrition courses, advanced coaching courses. Got the US PA Power Lifting Coaches course on there. Fixturing back tons of stuff on Back Health. My particular favorite is something called effort Force and Heaviness by Gido Vann. Gido is a doctor he's actually set up his own schools across the world. But basically talks about the perception of heaviness and how you can decrease the perception of heaviness to allow you to lift more weight. Ooh. Which is super interesting. Yeah, that is interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Super interesting. So how cool is there any longevity? So stuff on there, recovery stuff, sleep stuff? Yeah, so we have Joel Jameson's Seeking Recovery course on there. There's a ton order kabuki education stuff's on there. It's honestly, it's like 29 bucks a month or something. Nice. It's it's definitely worth it, honestly, like 29 bucks a month for some of these courses, which cost four or $500. Yeah. So it's hard to say no. If you're interested in that stuff, just search kabuki education and it'll come up, right? Yeah, yeah. That's the best way of doing it. Expect to lose a lot of time into this stuff, but, but it well worth it if you were coach, it's, it's probably more applicable if you're coaching people a hundred percent. Or, or if you're just interested, really interested in this stuff. Like, and this gets you, if you are learning how to, if you wanna learn how to make a, like the best program you can for yourself, don't do that. Go to rugby master.com and like get it done for you. Like, I'm serious. Like, we, we always say this, getting a coach, the most efficient way to take care of your training Ed Learn. And if you wanna learn, learn on the side, but don't do your own training. It just doesn't, like, that's not how you learn, especially most, it's really difficult. Yeah, it's fine. It's really, really difficult. And again, a time, absolute time suck. Well, what I can do, TJ, is I, I actually give you a free link to this. Mate, do this offer. You give me a free link. Like, oh, it's mean. There's like, there's like 20 hours of free, free material, ah, inside, just go. So I'll, I'll pop that, I'll pop that in the description below, mate. Beautiful. Yeah. All right. There you go. Beautiful. Sweet. Got that. All right, mate. It's been great chatting to you. You too, man. You guys listening. Hope you, hope that went well. If you have any comments on this stuff that we spoke about, I'm gonna get Alex again. Quite, we're gonna get regularly on this, me and you. So comment in the, the, the comments below on YouTube, or ask a question or, or actually no, go find a YouTube, leave your comment there. If you're listening on Spotify or Apple Podcast, I hear stitches going away. So wherever you listen, wherever you get your podcast, give us a five star review. Review it on Apple Podcast. Just leave the five stars on Spotify. People been really good at doing that. If you want to hear more of these interviews let us know in the comments or on the Apple Podcasts review section. That'd be great. Thank you guys so much for listening or watching. I'll see you in the next one.