TJ 0:00

We are recording, we are live on the Rugby Muscle podcast. I'm always tj, I'm a strength and conditioning coach. I specialize in training and nutrition with amateur rugby players. How long have we been doing this together? How long did we first start? I know it's close to 10. I've been doing this for over 10 years on my own. And you've been doing this on your, for over 10 years on your own. Are

Alex 0:21

you talking about coaching? Are you talking about being on the

TJ 0:22

podcast? No, uh, coaching So funny.

Alex 0:27

I was talking to Speedy about this the other day, um, literally two days ago and we reckoning. Yeah. 20 14, 20 15. Yeah. Almost 10 years. No, I know. It must

TJ 0:37

be over that actually. Yeah, because you we graduated in 2011. Me, so Yeah. Alex, there are people on this podcast listening for the first time, potentially who, dunno who you are. Introduce yourself. Ah,

Alex 0:51

so Alex, I am the assistant head coach at Kabuki Strength. Um, I work with power lifters primarily, but now drifting into, um, more military people, um, like mixed sports

TJ 1:06

athletes and stuff like, oh, that's cool. I always think that rugby is like the ultimate of this. And, and like that's why I like coaching rugby players is because actually like when you, and we wanna talk about this today as simplifying, uh, the whole world of strength and condition. But I think the more broader you go, the simpler you have to go. Right. And I don't mean in a sense that broad in is in the same sense that like you are now a very broad chap. Um, that's not what I mean. I mean broad across the spectrum of fitness, and I think the broader you go the, the more there is a need to simplify. Um, I think because you're going broader, I guess that's because you're not, uh, specializing, right?

Alex 1:49

Yeah. You got more general qualities. So you think about it in like building up different qualities of like fitness or different, like different physical qualities. That's probably the easiest way to think about it. Mm-hmm. like you just have to be good at everything rather than being like a specialist. So I had a, a friend, she was the head engineer at some fancy company. It, it was like a start Google Facebook type thing. And for each of her sub engineers, she drew like a t and I diagram and basically the top of the T was all the different skills. Mm-hmm. and the eye was really the oil were a specialist, but they needed to at least be rated like three or four out 10 all along the top line. Right. To be deployed. Right. And that's kinda what you are looking at rather than being a power lifter who's like a 10 out of 10 to the strength, you are looking at being like a, a three or four or five or six out 10 across at the whole

TJ 2:41

spectrum. Yeah. And then you can always, not even necessarily specialize, but you'll focus on a few of those areas to develop them. Cuz that's the other thing that I think people get wrong. And we've discussed this before, I think when we did the CrossFit podcast, like you, you over the course of. a few months, or even like up to a year. You want to improve all of those things and you want to all of those, all of those areas to go from a five or a six to like a seven or maybe even an eight, right? But it like, the higher you go on that scale, the more you do have to focus more on those things. Like, like you've seen it in studies where they take brand new lifters and you'll have them just, or not even lifters, untrained athletes and they'll do some walking and, or they'll do some treadmill sprints and they'll gain muscle. So like, you know what I mean? Because they've done absolutely nothing. And so like that, that works to begin with. But then the more you get, like the higher level you get, the more you have to, I say specialize, but it's not specialized. It's just you have to be more specific rather than like that there is a slight difference in the wording, I think. Yeah. No, I, yeah. I feel like it is. There, like specializing is focusing only on that specific is also focusing only on that. How do I, Hmm. I would say specialize

Alex 4:05

is probably task specific into training.

TJ 4:08

Yeah. There you go. Definitely.

Alex 4:10

Let's use that one. Huh?

TJ 4:18

You're trying to share your screen? We ain't on zoom, mate. No, I'm trying to make a bigger screen. What do you mean a bigger screen? You wanna zoom out in your massive head because you're a beard. Yeah, dude,

Alex 4:28

my beard makes my head like two inches bigger. Like, like longer. This way. It's fucking nuts.

TJ 4:34

We have a, is this like live? Live? Yeah, it's on the Facebook group. I decided just to stream it just for the band. So anyone that is watching us live on a Facebook feed, say hi. Give us a thumbs up. Um, and we'll probably if you have any questions, we'll answer them on the podcast. So before we get into simplification, we have. I wish, I mean if this thing was better, it wouldn't say Facebook user, it would say who the Facebook user is. Do you wanna read the question and I'll find out who the Facebook user is? Yeah. You find

Alex 5:01

out, but we should be able to narrow it down. Okay. So I have had the pleasure of playing with both of you. Okay. Um, what area of training that is relative to rope do you feel is massively underutilized? Good work fellows. Ah, which be,

TJ 5:19

did you find out who it was? Yeah. Switch Bell. Oh, nice. Yeah. Sweet Has Oh, he's played with us independently. Yeah. Cause Play League them. Indeed. I've had the pleasure. Speaking of big heads,

Alex 5:42

do you wanna

TJ 5:42

take this one first then I'll, uh, what area of training is relative to rugby? Dufu is ma massively underutilized conditioning. Aerobic condition, it's always gonna be that. And it will. That's been, it took me a few years to really buy into it because most of the conditioning you do is like cool stuff. Like when you first get into condition and you first think, oh, I'm doing rugby specific. It's like, have you ever seen that meme of the, it's like the inverted you and it starts out as like a, uh, oh yeah.

Alex 6:14

Like the stone age man. Yeah. Normal person

TJ 6:18

and then Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So the stone age man is, uh, I should probably just run and lift weights cause I wanna be better rugby. Then you get into like super analytical, well, I should do metcons, I should be doing, uh, Olympic lifts. I should be doing this. And then yeah, I should just get strong and just run and like aerobic, like, it took me a few years to figure out like the aro, the, the like nonstop, continual benefits of just getting the most robust, uh, elite. aerobic system you can just, is the gift that does not stop giving. Um, and like it just helps improve awareness as a performance. And I think people don't want to hear that because it's, and at all levels as well, people don't want to hear it cuz it's because it's boring because like, and also because they don't think like they, they're, they don't think it's enough. They think they have to do something more and they'll feel guilty about only doing that. But like I've said this story before, I think on the podcast, I've definitely written about it. I had one guy, he's 37 and he was a lock and he came to me in the spring season in us. So, which would've been March or it would've been April, I think he came to me and he is like 37. He is like, look, next year's gonna be probably be my last year playing rugby as in like the next season. Um, and I, I know I need to get fitter because I'm just too unfit. Like, would, would you recommend he's a lock, he's. I think he used to be a farmer, like well built. And I was like, look, look, you, you don't need to, you, you're plenty strong enough for this level. You don't need to lift any more weights. You don't have to worry about that stuff, especially if you can only like get to, you can't even get to the gym. You can just train once a week. Just go out for a low, like a low and slower aerobic run, run three-ish miles, maybe you just start like two miles and build up. See what you can do. So like, don't overthink it. Just do that and just don't, don't question it. Don't run too high. Don't let your heart rate go over one 40 ish and you're gonna feel like that's too easy. You're gonna feel like it's so easy. You feel like, what's the, what's the point? Trust me, just do this. Just do this once a week and if, and, and, and see. And then we'll see where you are. Like, cuz what I mean it's better nothing anyway. Right. So I might as well try and do that. He came back, uh, found out he, he did that for about one or two months. He then after like in the summer, went to two sessions a week. Mostly like still one, still sometimes one, quite often two. And he would just do a two to three and sometimes, occasionally he would extend it out to like an hour. So it could get into like four or five miles, I guess. Maybe even six. Not sure six miles in an hour is actually pretty fast going. That's not, that's probably not that. Um, so like, I'm not saying 10 K in an hour is a fast pace, but it is if you're doing, uh, zone two work. Anyway, so he said, um, you know, so he came back and he was like, yeah, I feel better. Let's see how it is. He made his, he, he played for the twos and like he for the first time ever was like carrying, he's like, I'm a lock. I've never known how to carry. But he, because he was like aerobically fit, he was able to like, the game was just so much slower for him and he was able to actually get involved rather. so many forwards, so many players in rugby are just so knackered the whole time. They're just doing their job and just trying to, like, they're just treading more, they're just trying to get their head above water. Whereas like what? Like aerobic workers learning how to swim and all of a sudden this guy could swim. Week two, he makes the bench starts carrying does really well. Week three. Week three of the new season. This is like less than six months away from when he said and doing one session a week of aerobic training. He scored a fucking hat trick. Like, and, and that first try of the hat trick I think was like his first ever first team try at 37. Like it is ridiculous. And like that story just goes to show the impact that actual like real simple aerobic work can actually get you. Cuz again, I've, I've, I've beat this drum all the time, especially with these guys cuz they're my team that I coach. So I'm like, it doesn't take that much. But they want to, they want more flashy stuff because I think they're scared that this is too, is not enough. It's too easy. Or not even scared, it's just that's you're, you are then confronted with this is how easy it needs to be for you to do it. Go fucking do it. So, aerobic work, I would say, I'm actually gonna disagree with you. All right. I will point

Alex 10:47

out something out that my support requires a zero aerobic work. But right next to me, I have a little tool for resistance, breathing, training, spiritual muscles, and a heart rate monitor. Uhhuh Because even though my support requires zero aerobic and work, it's just that important to do that. I, I actually go my way to train. Um, but in terms of answering rich World's question, um,

TJ 11:11

well, how is that disagree? Sorry. How is that disagreeing with me? Because I think something

Alex 11:16

is more important. I can, something can be important, but something else be important

TJ 11:20

though. Well, what you're saying is more Oh, so you are gonna disagree with me after. Yes. I thought that, I thought what you just said was disagreement. I was like, no, you're saying the same thing. No, no, absolutely agree with

Alex 11:29

you. Um, I think the area which is underlooked or underutilized most is tactical. Having understanding the game and practicing decision making is, I, I can't, yeah. Think of the time that people have sat down, but, uh, maybe a couple times and gone, Hey, this is the right way to make decisions. Or this is like, this is the process. They start to talk about loops and stuff. I think that's probably the most underuse, honest.

TJ 12:02

Could be. Yeah. Like, but no, I'll push back because. I'm right. I don't want to be Right. A decision aerobic test a hundred percent. That, that's actually hundred percent true. Like, because I think when you are so gased, you're not even aware that you are making a decision. You're just, you are literally just trying to, like I said, you're trying to keep your head above water. Like be like, and that's why I do think it is the most, still most underutilized because most people, they play rugby, but they're not in good enough shape to actually play rugby. Right. Right. So

Alex 12:36

let's, let's go down that route, right? If we're, we're gonna say this, we're gonna say, okay, good decision, red, bad decision, green. Mm-hmm. if you don't know what a good

TJ 12:46

is, you might as well be a hundred percent. But I think most people a little bit, but I don't think people can even be aware that the decision is there to be made. They're not even aware of the green option. You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. That's not my point. That they'll, they No, but I'm saying they're not aware of that option because they're so gased. Oh yeah. That's fine, but it's both. I would agree. Like I think we're both, you know, two, there can be two truths. Yeah, a hundred percent. Let's, let's just agree that we're both correct. Both 100% correct. One A and one b i I would, I would agree. Like, cuz there's two ways to go at this cuz you, you do have different areas of popula. I think you've got a good, um, if, if you are, if you've got a good decision making process in place, but you, you are not aware that that process exists, like, because you're so gased, like it doesn't matter what decision making process is there, you're not thinking about it in the heat of battle at the same time you are. Right. You'll get a lot of people, probably the same people that constantly complain about the amount of kicking in rugby cuz they don't understand a tactical game involved. That even if they got really fit, they wouldn't be aware that these decisions exist. Uh, so again, I guess it's

Alex 14:02

like the, uh, Andy, good problem, right? Like, he's like so good at decision maker.

TJ 14:09

Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't have to be fit. Hundred percent. Yeah. Or, or the, or the PSBs problem, or like the, uh, what's the, who's the, uh, Winer for England? That's that Eddie Jones love. Joe. Joe. Th and a singer, you could be such an unreal athlete, right? That all of your, like, you don't, you make terrible decisions, but because you're such a beast, it doesn't really matter. So again, yeah, it works both ways. I, I hoping this is Sam who said even if you're capable of making a decision, breathing out of your ass, clouds that process. Like, can't disagree with that, can we? Like, I think it's true. I think you are right though. In the, and the other thing where I was gonna push back was you said that it's about, um, like. It's an underutilized tool, but I don't think it is. Cause I think people are trying like club clubs up and down England and now in the US as well. We've all got those VO cameras. Have you ever heard of these? No, I'm not, what's this? Uh, VO camera. It's like a, it's like a, you, you, it's like a 180 degree camera and you, you put it up on the side of the pitch and it like sort of Oh yeah, yeah. I guess it doesn't automatically follow the ball, but AI makes it follow the ball I guess or something. And what, and so everyone now, like if you think back to it, if we were talking about 2011 and 2012 when we were playing with Sam Ridge Bill, right. You'd, my team had a camera, but it was rare. And, and even then, like we had, and we'd have one video session a month and that was like a decent enough. teams now at every level have cameras. What are like for their games, right? The, so that is such a great tool to utilize your decisions and your decision making and what options are available and why decisions have been made and to improve, right? So I think that that is getting more and more utilized. The problem is probably most people get those videos and then they just watch their own highlights and they go, look how fucking awesome I am. Yeah. you know, that's exactly what people do. Like, oh, look at this. Yeah, but what about this, this here where you could have passed it and then you just took it into contact and you had a three on zero outside you ah, that fuck Yeah. What I mean, that happens all the time. Yeah, for sure. For sure. But if you, if you did utilize it, I do think that's a, that's definitely something that I think people should, like, generally being proactive is something that's underutilized and maybe that's not like, I guess it is an area of training, but it's the whole training process of right, of, of having an idea of what you want to improve and then trying to put a system in place to go about improving it like that. Most people don't even do that with strength and conditioning, but that isn't limited to strength and conditioning as well. Sweet. Wow. The answer to that question really good. Yeah. I know you think that comes from, like, I think we've already discussed this as well, but it's a point I always wanna make is like, when people go to training, they don't see it as training. They see it as a competition to get their start in Jersey on the weekend more often than not. And therefore you don't put yourself in a position to, to expose yourself to things that you could improve upon So, um, yeah, we did, we did na, we nailed the shout outta that question. I wanted to talk to you because you normally actually, I, I just like talking to you, mate. You're a nice little easy softball intro into us getting back into interviews. Um, you have recently just done the kabuki strength. Uh, it's Kabuki Strength Week, Kabuki Education Week, Kabuki Strength Education, Kabuki education, just ka correction week, the Kabuki Education Week. And you gave a, uh, talk on,

Alex 18:12

uh, simplification of WorkStar selection and strength sports.

TJ 18:17

And I think that is very, very poignant at the minute because I have recently gone out and said that this is the year of, um, of simplification. Actually, I think I might have, even if I can check one of my old emails. This is the year of about four minutes here, mate. No, but I also sent it like a month ago. I'm not just, I'm not just piggybacking off you. I'm, I'm being serious. All right. This is the year of simplification because there's so much fucking noise out there that I do think simplification is, is awesome and 100% necessary. Um, Can we get some cliff notes on why it's so important for you? And maybe if we can begin to discuss how we can go about it? So

Alex 19:09

the, there was three main reasons I wanted to talk about simplifying precise selection. Um, one is, uh, it's really precocious that are rising tide little boats, right? Uhhuh, So we have this idea that as like a, a team or a group coaches can get better and that makes everyone else around you better by, by improving the quality of the coaching industry. And this isn't just strength coaches, like all coaches. You can get better. They can understand stuff. Um, we end up having a more positive effect on people around us, and we can end up charging more money for people. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cause I like make a living. Okay. Uh, the second thing I wanted to talk about with Bit was basically I like talking about it. Uh, I, I spend a lot of my time thinking about it and, uh, I get to do what I like most of the time. And then finally, um, we don't just stand on the shoulders of giants, okay? So it's quite a selfish reason that if I can educate people about exercise selection, then they get to go away and think about it and improve on what I did, and I can learn from them. Um, yeah. Improve one. So that's kind of why I wanted to talk about

TJ 20:20

it. Um, can I, can I go back to that first one? Yep. So, uh, I've of space on what that first one was. It wasn't, it wasn't entire differences, right? So, are you saying that by simplifying this process, like we are not, like what happens, what can tend to happen with strength and conditioning is we overcomplicate stuff and a lot of boats get left not being risen with the tide. And I butchered the metaphor, but you didn't get the point. Right. I would argue

Alex 20:57

what's the most important thing to do with training or to do intro And I'd, I'd argue that it's showing up. It's probably

TJ 21:05

Yep. Probably a big thing. A hundred percent.

Alex 21:08

Yep. So I mean, it's fundamental. If people understand something, if something is simple, if something can be kind of brought into easily, they're much more likely to show up and do it. Mm-hmm. right? So I think that's kind of where the, the kind of gold is that people like, there doesn't need to be people left behind if they, if they can buy it. So that's kinda what I gotta say about that part. Um, I feel like I didn't really explain anything though though.

TJ 21:44

No, you didn't. Okay, sweet. I get, I get like, why you decided it was important to you. So, I mean, you did explain that. So, so what's the

Alex 21:53

actual question?

TJ 21:54

What did I, what did I miss? So we've kind of already, I, that's why I pushed back on the question right? Is, is what's the purpose? Like, why is it so important that we need to simplify? Cause obviously I have my own ideas cause I've said 2023 is a year of fucking simplifying. Um, and I think the main point is I think all of those three, everything that you've said ties into like what we just said at the end is getting people to do it right. I think the biggest problem we are having at the minute, or I find that people have. that get solved at the minute by my coaching, but also get solved by whatever program or whatever process you can. I think the biggest, one of the most common problems I see people is, is overwhelm because there is like it used to be, right? If, I mean, if we go back to when we first started this, we first started coaching athletes because there wasn't the information available, right? There just wasn't, you had to go to bodybuilding.com and like figure out, oh, how does this sort of, yeah. Tea Nation and figure out, oh, okay. What does Paula Quinn recommend, or how does this sort of apply to a rugby player? Oh, here's, here's one per, I remember, like, I remember watching the same All Blacks video that they did of their one gym session this one time over and over again, and I was like, deciphering it. I was like, fucking, oh, okay. Byron Kellerher there doing like weighted pullups. I'm like, okay, weighted pullups is the thing that I've gotta do. And then there's one guy doing like, uh, uh, like just a warmup. And I'm like totally overthinking this warmup thing. I'm like, ah, he's just doing like, just a general warmup right now. Like, you could take four shits in a day and you could, you could have an hour and a half worth of all different, like opposing agreeing, uh, like normal, like obvious, and then like completely random and completely unthought of, and completely out of the box ideas, all sorts of information as to what you could do specifically with a rugby shrink of the conditioning program. It's fucking mental or, or how you could apply getting in shape, you know? And so now, yeah, the problem is that everyone is so overwhelmed that they have no idea where to start. I was saying is I think our job now is, it is still complicated on the back end. That's the other thing that people don't like that gets lost with this is we try and simplify it on the front end. You know, you are just doing a back squat or you're just doing a, a front squat or whatever. That does not mean that there isn't reasons as to why you are doing those things. But it also doesn't mean, and this is, this is the other reason I think people get overwhelmed and it, it's hard to make things simple, is because they want a good or a bad answer. You know, front squad's bad. Back squats good, or, you know what I mean? They want something that's the best and they're afraid that whatever they're doing is not the best rather than everything is on a spectrum of, uh, specific slash useful, you know, versus, uh, general and like wasting of your time. Everything's on that spectrum and there's, and there's different plots and different areas that for different people and so when they don't ever find a, this is the best answer to do or this is the best thing to do, uh, type answer, they struggle to, to understand that. But they, but then that's where things get complicated and they get overwhelmed and then they get more, they think they keep searching because they want the best answer, but there is no the best answer. There's just, yeah, let's, let's give this a fucking go and see where it goes. Yeah. I mean,

Alex 25:35

you touched earlier, mate, spirituality of truth. Right. That both people can be right at the same time.

TJ 25:39

Yeah. mate, we are doing all the callbacks in this episode. Proud of us for real.

Alex 25:45

Um, yeah, so, so you, you, um, you touched someone, which is kind of interesting where you're saying, um, people who want simplification, but they, they, they don't want to make decisions or they don't want, they understand process. So I actually defined simplification as a reduction of a number of steps in the decision making process.

TJ 26:04

Nice. Yeah. And then I went,

Alex 26:06

I went down. I was like, okay, well simplification done well is reducing the number of steps in decision making process without losing any bureaucracy. And that's really what you're looking for. Yeah. You're looking to make the least choices you can without fucking up. Yeah. So for example, when you, when you're talking about the a squat to build strength for a rugby, like what, what actually are you trying to do? Or what's the most simple way of thinking about it? It's like, Hey, you're putting in these men, you hit. Mm-hmm. So that's what your big criteria to fulfill kind of, I'm not gonna talk about four vectors

TJ 26:44

here cause it's just Yeah. There's, there's lots of other things. Yeah. You could contribute different stein points that would lead to a squat.

Alex 26:52

Yeah. Well we wouldn't even why about they, but okay, well are you doing the same kind of movement pattern, right? Yeah. So a joint the same. Sweet. Now how heavy do you actually have to move lift and rugby? Not, not that heavy. No. Like the most absolute, most lifting wise is 160 kilos. Right. That'd be the

TJ 27:11

absolute, the you, that would be the, like the minimum effective criteria to get to max out your potential. I,

Alex 27:19

I'm saying the actual most, you have to actually lift. I'm not saying

TJ 27:22

like they're most force or anything. Oh yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. No one bigger than 160 kilo. Who the fuck is lifting 160 kilos? Yeah. You wouldn't have to lift that much mate. Yeah. Um, but anyway, yeah. So

Alex 27:33

yeah. So a load potential on, on any xray you. Doesn't even do that, that high. No. So now you basically have to pick any spot variation you like as long as it fulfills the criteria that you're bending your knees and your hips and it's relatively like heavy ish. And it's

TJ 27:51

challenging. Yeah.

Alex 27:53

Yeah. And like that's basically where it gets to, as long as you're fulfilling

TJ 27:57

criteria which are important to sport. Well, that's the, that's the thing, right? It comes back to, and I have, I have given a little bit of a random it. Same thing with the, the people wanting the yes or no, or the good or bad answers is that people are putting in the wrong criteria. That they're already coming to this discretion as the, I need to back squat. Right? Like, that's not that, that, that's, that's the criteria. No, that's not how it works. Like you, they're coming at it from the, the wrong. They're, rather than looking at the outcomes they, they want, they're looking at, I need to gym. What's wrong with this program? And that's fine cuz that's, that's a simpler that's, but so that's where they've simplified it as best they can, but then they've, they've lost the accuracy in that process, you know what I mean? They've, they've then taken the ac they've taken the Yeah. Accuracy and gone to power lifting. They've gone to 5 31. Or they, or a lot of people go to CrossFit, you know, which is like, it's okay. And it's simple. And so they'll, again, they'll, people will, will get good results, like decent results with that stuff. Because, because they're actually gonna do it, you know, as opposed to going in and figuring out what they're gonna do each time. That's no one ever. No, I don't think anyone really has ever got good results doing that. Um, no.

Alex 29:18

No, I don't think so. Yeah. Like, you are, like this idea of precision versus accuracy versus like, are you short? You must have short, yeah. Right. Yeah. So, you know, you, you showing a target, like you can be precise but not accurate. Yeah. But if your grouping's really good.

TJ 29:35

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uhhuh But you never got one in the middle zone, but you've got 'em all. Yeah. You, you hit the paper on all of them. Yeah.

Alex 29:43

So, so that's kinda what they're doing. They're kind of like, yeah, they're doing something really well. Mm-hmm. but it's not what they want be doing.

TJ 29:50

Like, just doesn't play it. Yeah. They're doing it good enough. Exactly. And so what they're missing is some real e simple enough tweaks that they've shown, the consistency that if they did that simple tweak that could be a game changer. Like that turns into being decently accurate. Close range to headshot. Headshot. Headshot. Headshot, boom. Jack Reacher style. We

Alex 30:14

gonna say good target shooting. How Jack does that man. Huh? How, how Jack does

TJ 30:20

that man. Oh, the, the, the Amazon reacher. What's his, yeah, man, he, he says his prayers fucking well, man,

Alex 30:29

I, I just remember him from Blue Mountain State, which if you haven't seen. Definitely. Mm-hmm.

TJ 30:33

you, you really like it? No, I've seen Blue Mountain State. Yeah. That's what I think about when I see him.

Alex 30:41

you know the oil change scene I had to explain to, to Getty what oil

TJ 30:44

change What the other day? In, in, in, um Oh yeah, yeah. Blue Mountain State mate. Yeah, let's not go down this rabbit hole. Put Mountain State. I completely forgot that Jack Reacher was that fella. I was thinking about Jack Reacher as, uh, you know, Jack Reacher was based on a rugby player. No, I didn't, I think, I think it might have even been Lawrence Del Lao. Like, cuz Lee Child is Welsh and it was like the tall blonde. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was Lawrence del Lao. You got better looking didn't he? Yeah, I dunno. People thought, well Lawrence del LA back in the day was a stud. So, I

Alex 31:23

mean, who am I drive you? It's not, not

TJ 31:25

really my, a specialty. Ah. What? I don't know. I dunno what you saying by that mate. Actually you call me stupid. So, go fuck yourself, don't

Alex 31:35

Sweet Leo. Um,

TJ 31:39

Let's go back to the podcast. What the hell are we talking about? We were talking about

Alex 31:43

specificity and simplification, right? Um, but we, we kind of covered it when we say like, they understand what the, the end result you

TJ 31:52

want is. And the more specific you could be with that, the better. I also think the more specific you can be with that, the better. It helps with the consistency as well. Like a plan is good enough if like it's good enough to paper over some cracks to keep you, because then you are just focused on the improvement process. But if you are, so, if you, if you've got a real good idea of exactly what you want, you're more aligned with that improvement process and therefore you're more emotionally attached to it and therefore you're more likely gonna like stick with it even when you don't get that immediate reward of. F results over the first few weeks. Like if you could just stick at the process for, uh, like a long enough time without needing the, the, uh, gratification of a result, uh, every, however, you know, few weeks to like, if you never, even never ever needed that, imagine how well you could focus on something. But we're all emotional beans and that's what we wanna do, you know? Yeah. I wouldn't

Alex 32:52

max out my deadlift every couple of weeks.

TJ 32:56

You should know better than that, but like, I do think that's really, really important and, and that helps you, like, I've thought about that as well of myself, is that like, I think this is the cool thing about one of the cool areas of rugby strength and condition, and where we can bring that back to like what you were talking about with military personnel and being good across the spectrum, is that in a way, it's quite cool on in rugby that you get to choose the different areas of how, like you want to improve as a player and then work at those because that feels cool when, like you are, I'm a, you're a lot more aligned to training like that in the gym, to feeling like you, like it's, it's more fun, um, in the moment and long term. Cuz you're like, I dunno, you're probably not listening to this if you are really interested in like, body building for body building's sake. Like, there are so many other podcasts you're gonna be listening to where like, people just nerd about that stuff. Like, but for me, I, I know that never worked really for me. Like, I remember trying to train like, and, and I remember once when I first retired from, from before I was a, I was a grappling champion. I first retired from rugby and I was like trying to figure out like how to stay motivated in the gym. Cuz all of a sudden I was like, what the fuck? And there's a point of this. And especially after I, like, I got really lean then I was like, all right, now what the fuck do I do? Because. I ain't really gonna gain that much muscle anymore. Um, which I was also kind of wrong about, but I just wasn't in a, like, definitely just not motivated to, to wait for that process. I remember I, when I, it was either when I interviewed Brett Contreras for the podcast or it was before or after, and I, I said like, how, like, how do you say like, because he doesn't compete in anything or anything, but he's, he's absolutely yoked, yoked, uh, to the fucking roof. And he's strong as well. Like, I was like, so how do you do it? And he's like, I just set myself a few lifts that I want to improve upon for a few months and, and that's it. And I go about that process and I'm, and I tried that and I was like, nah, this is boring. I'm like, I'm so, like, as soon as it gets tough, I'm like, I'm out of this. This is this. It's not cool. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

Alex 35:02

Do that. So basically I just the same lift until I get bored of it.

TJ 35:06

Yeah. Uh, I get bored of it in three weeks. Like, but that's the cool thing about rubbish shanking conditioning and, and probably like, Being quite broad on this spectrum is that you get to take the easy gains everywhere they come and they, and usually like, it's, it's just never that hard to continually keep improving. You know, like your first year of doing zone two work all my fucking good God. Like, you make unbelievable progress, you know, and then you, you go into some, or during that phase even, you can go into like zone five or, or even like atp, uh, like all out power work, right? And all of a sudden again, like, uh, alactic threshold stuff, you all of a sudden you just make massive improvements in your game. then you like, it's ridiculous. And then you do lactate stuff and that, and that, that makes small improvement. And it's also kind of fun because you, you, it's now easier than it was before and you can enjoy it. Pushing yourself harder in a weird way. But as soon as it gets really hard and you're not making any progress anymore, well you've plateaued. Pull, pull, pull out and, and do something else for real. I think,

Alex 36:19

um, that idea, you have so much improvement to gain from your initial zone. Two work is fucking massive. Like, do my, so I was started doing zone two work before, before we went to Spain. So last summer was someone just mm-hmm. and my zone two work. I was literally walking and stopped. Stop,

TJ 36:38

stop. Like yeah. To stop walking.

Alex 36:40

For real. To stop. Hilarious. I mean, I was walking up like hill, like big

TJ 36:45

Blake, you're also really unfit. that's the point. You, you're trying to Yeah. Emphasize it. Yeah. It's super.

Alex 36:50

Super. It. Yeah. But now, like, now, like I'll swim. Um, I don't know. I, I swim about half an hour playing

TJ 36:57

nonstop. Swimming's rough zone two. You must be a good swimmer. I, I used to swim nationally. No. Okay. For Gonzi, that's not nationally. Na Gonzi is not a nation lead. National Night Competitions actually. Oh, okay. In UK competitions. Alright. Yeah. I used to be a can swimmer as well. Oh no. East County Rugby. East Hot,

Alex 37:18

I made a lot of rugby players. Used to be a swimmers.

TJ 37:21

I've never, I've never made that connection. Really? Yeah, I know, I know. Plenty of rugby players are counseling. Yeah. Well, maybe I'm

37:29

just

Alex 37:30

wrong then. Maybe I'll just basing it up just off me.

TJ 37:34

a real n equals one. Yeah.

Alex 37:39

But yeah, like, dude, there's so much skin zone two

TJ 37:41

work people just, yeah. And like. And, and it's, it's, that's been hammered home to me ever since the the uh, Alex VR yarder pod I did a couple years back now, like it is a free lunch as well. It's just time. It is just time. But other than that, like I have people do zone two work the day before a game, day after a game. Like whenever they can get it in, it's, it's, and like the biggest issue I have with zone two work is it's likeactually two issues. Number one, it's too simple. Right? People like, what do you mean I'm just doing this? Like, what? And it takes a while to get the buy-in. Once you get the buy-in, it's like, that's great. The other problem is, yeah, it is just quite time consuming. Like yeah, it

Alex 38:30

does add up, but I know, like I have guys, one guy who's trying to break a world record bench press and he, three days outta the week he's doing even tempo work or local work.

TJ 38:42

Yeah. Cuz I mean also that stuff it like, I know this is, this is not what we were supposed to be talking about, but like this is the aerobic work also. Like it helps you train more, right? So that's, that's the purpose that you are doing it for. It's not just, it is, so it might, it helps you play so much better, but also like it helps with all of your training. And that's a big reason like to, to, to add it in. Because you could do, and I've done this a lot of time that I'll start and we can talk about this because this kind of shows a simplicity on the front end, but on the back end, people don't think about this is, say if someone has two, has four days of, of training available, uh, it doesn't matter if they're in season or off season. Really I'll more often than not just do two sessions of lifting and two sessions of condition and, and that condition will be one queue, like steady state and one tempo work. And because. Most people have already been doing four sessions in the gym of like power lifting style stuff to try and eek out whatever they can on their squat, even though their squats just not efficient and that's not necessary anyway. Or bodybuilding split or whatever it is. And that's not like a slight on these people because they just don't know. Right. And because they think that that is the o like that, that's the part that they need to complicate. Well, actually the complicated part is introducing that zone two work so that they can get fitter and then be able to do like to number one, play better on the pitch, but also train better, um, recover better, all that good stuff that like, and that's so easy to, to, to reap the benefits. and so easy to do, and then in the two sessions a week, all of a sudden, because they're like much more focused and you're not doing, you know, you're not chipping away at your discipline and you're recovering better because you're only doing two sessions. All of a sudden they make so much more progress in those two sessions as well. Like on the front end, you're thinking, what, I'm only lifting two days a week and I'm only doing this real obvious, like basic aerobic work. This disc doesn't seem like, like this is the, the solution for me as a rugby player. An actual fact, like, because it seems so simple, an actual fact that it actually is 100% the solution because of the complications on the backend. Because like, this is how you need to get your heart more efficient and this is how actually you need to lift a little bit more specifically to what you need to do. And actually, if just doing these things right is gonna give you much more gains than doing seven different things. Kinder. Right? Yeah.

Alex 41:23

For real. I mean, if we take it back to that simplicity idea of reducing decision making, Yeah, we can basically go find out what's gonna be the lowest hanging fruit. Do that. Which 90% of the time is gonna be theoretical.

TJ 41:36

Right. Uh, you can go, well, it's, it's, it's one or the other. So I also have people, actually, no, even then, a lot of people come in the, uh, uh, I was gonna say aerobically efficient, but that's not true. They're just not, they're just, they just do a lot of conditioning. But even then, most of that conditioning is, uh, lactic stuff, like it's anaerobic intervals or some sort of sprint interval. So then even then doing the aerobic stuff, because they've got, they've still got decent work capacity because of that. And decent, not even work capacity as opposed to just like mental, uh, suffer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But not even suffer. Right. It's just ability to, I guess it's suffering boredom of, of, you know, for lack of anything else. Um, and they are afraid to lift heavy enough and they're afraid to like pack on the weight as far as like eating calories and stuff. Cuz they, they wanna stay lean and they're worried that, um, like putting on weight is going to make them less fit. And they're also, because people often associate being fit with losing weight, which is again, another misnomer, right? But they either come from that end of, they come from that end of the spectrum where the low hanging fruit is actually, Hey, let's just get you on 3000 calories and have you eating properly and fueling yourself for this amount of like this work that you are doing. Or let's get some decent enough volume in so that you can actually gain some muscle and gain some real strength there because that all of a sudden can make everything else easier. Um, like, uh, team. I could have another example of a guy that is was, you know, he was a bit of a feeble nine or a 10. He's now been playing, uh, in the centers and has been smashing it and been leading defense as opposed to like, because he's always had that low hanging fruit of pushing himself hard enough in the weight room. But now all of a sudden everything becomes easier. And again, you're probably right though in that that zone two is still the low hanging through that most people just ignore because they don't want that. Like they, they don't want it to be that simple. Well, I

Alex 43:42

like you said it, it's this fucking boring. Yeah, right. I mean, how many, like, are you? Netflix? You do it, do you

TJ 43:48

podcast? Do you, uh, yeah, I, I'll usually I'll find something in, like sometimes I'll watch rugby. Um, sometimes I'll watch jiujitsu videos. Uh, and then sometimes I'll watch like, educational videos. Um, the educational videos more often than not, oh no, this is when I'm doing it on the elliptical only. which is actually not as a lot more rare. I usually just go out and run. Um, and it's my time to listen to, just to some, like I'll either do one of two things. I'll either one just go without headphones or anything and I'll just run and I'll use it sort of like me as a meditative type session, which first five minutes I really don't wanna do. And like, which shows to me that I need to do it in a way like, or even not first five minutes, like cuz I'll usually do it first thing in the morning. Um, I'll spend the longest time just faffing around. Like I'll make a coffee and it takes me half an hour to make that coffee just cuz I'm like, ah, fuck it, we'll go out. So the best coffee and then I always regret it because it's like much later in the day by the time I do get out and I'm like, ah, should have gone out. But anyway, it's doing that like always at least 10 minutes in I feel great. I'm like, yes, this is great. I feel so much better. Um, or I'll listen just to some nonsense podcast or entertainment podcast. Yeah, meditate. But that's even worse though than like, well, not worse, but that's even more boring. Like, well, because you don't have the, like when you're out running, I, like, I can't run at the gym. I'll ne if I go to the, if I'm doing zone two at the gym, it has to be an elliptical because I can't run and watch Netflix or watch something on the, the screen. Yeah. I'm, I'm looking around.

Alex 45:28

Right, because I like, so the war is like 10, 15

TJ 45:30

meters de no, no, no. So yeah, yeah, yeah. No, when you're, when you are swimming, it's different. Yeah. Okay. But you're looking around when you swim.

Alex 45:38

Yeah. I wasn't walking or running on the cliffs, so it's like, it's the nature anyway.

TJ 45:43

Yeah. That's, that's cool. I, I, no, my swimming's still always been sprints or nothing. I'm, I'm not a big fan of swimming, cuz I think, well, unless you've got the skill level you have, it's different. Like if you've got the skill level you have, great. But a lot of people will say, oh, you know, I want to go do some swimming. I'm like, yeah, but that's just like, your heart rate just bumps up too. Way too high. And then, and then you kind of screwed. Yeah, it took,

Alex 46:08

it took a long, a lot of the summer to learn to not try so hard. Yeah.

TJ 46:14

I am tracking. I know exactly. Like, I don't know exactly, but I know, I know. Close enough. What 40 grams of protein per meal looks like and I'm, I'm never like, you know, there are people that eat and they don't think about protein. Like, like most people don't have the time to do that. Yeah, yeah. Well, I do. You do? Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm not saying you don't, I'm not saying you are like, that's cool.

Alex 46:36

Yeah. And don live like, I don't know, I can throw a ball to the beach. Oh

TJ 46:41

yeah. Yeah. It's like 10 meters that way. So. Sweet. Wait, you swimming in a wetsuit then? No. Is it cold? Yep. How many calories do you eat in a day then, if you're doing this stuff? Cuz you're still, um, how often are you swimming? Probably three times a week right now. And how long are those sessions?

Alex 47:04

About like an hour maybe, but some of it, I'm not swimming. It's

TJ 47:09

hard time. Okay. Because, because like, the, the, is the, is the calorie burning swimming pretty uh, comparable to running? Cuz I'm assuming like, no, because running, you've got. you the firm effect. That's what I was gonna say. But you, you don't have the, the effect of carrying your body weight like you do with running, you know, like running is running burns a shit ton of calories cuz you're, you're, you're pounding your body weight on the, on the ground essentially. Right. Um, swimming, you are not like, I've never for fat loss as well. I've never encouraged swimming in your, in a freezing pool. I mean in a freezing sea. It could work. That's why I'm, that's why I was thinking about it. It's just an interesting No, I know you don't, but I'm, it is just interesting. It's popped up. But no, I've never liked swimming for, for weight because again, you're not weightbearing so you get the thermic effect. Like, cuz obviously everyone's heard that. I think that's been since been debunked. But that thing about Michael Phelps having his like million, uh, egg bats every day or something. Yeah. Like egg sandwiches. Uh, like, but there, there is a, there that is a big thing, but also you ain't getting through the amount of work that fucking Michael Phelps is getting through on a daily basis.

Alex 48:26

funny that before this podcast I ate pastor for two,

TJ 48:30

if that makes sense. Oh, so did I

Alex 48:32

pastor and then that's

TJ 48:35

dinner after this. I actually did that exact same thing as well. You know what, I've recently re learned for food. This is, this is way off topic, but we we're, alright, we, we've, we've nailed the simplicity part, right? Actually, this, this leans into the simplicity to simplify my nutrition, right? We've been doing, um, like a Sunday cook up and we've just been making like lunches and dinners for the weeks just because we, we, we work like we're trying to do sometimes do two sessions a day because we've got juujitsu in the evening. Um, Yeah. And jujitsu doesn't finish till like eight 30 ish, like nine o'clock. And we want to go to bed. Like, yeah. So we want dinner to be ready, like just for us to just get, get in, heat it up and, and then like we, like, we don't have to mess around doing that. Um, and then the same thing for lunch. Like, cuz we, we've been going to the gym around lunchtime if we do gym or if we, uh, or if we do a lunchtime BJJ session or if we're just working, like it's still just there and it's prepped. But what I've been doing recently is I'm having this exact same lunch. Uh, I have an exact same thing for breakfast, lunch, and then my pre-training meal is all the exact same. And it just, and it just like the mental bandwidth that's been saving me is like ridiculous because I don't have to think about it. Like Yeah. It's thing is a thing, man. For sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like same thing for, um, like training as well, right? It's, I guess it's the same thing, right? Rather than think about what you gotta do, it's a bit different cuz the nutrition side of things can be a lot more simpler, but for a lot of people it's not right. For a lot of people, it's like that's where tracking their calories using My Fitness Pal comes in. And I think actually it's overwhelming at the beginning, but it can, but reality is that is also simplifying stuff because it's turning everything into protein, carbs, and fats. Which people, and again, that's probably the, the least decisions, but the most accu, but the most, what did you say? The, whilst keeping, not the accuracy. What did you say? You gotta keep the resolutions to what I said. Uh, by keeping the resolution, by keeping the, like, making sure that you'll get, you are, um, being specific with what you want, right? That you're gonna be as specific as you can if you're doing, uh, protein, carbs, and fat for the most part. There are ways that people will fuck that up, but normally, like you learn from that pretty quick. Yeah. I mean, I think that's

Alex 51:09

fair to say. I think anything where you make less decisions

TJ 51:12

simpler. Yeah. And I think, but then there might be stages where you have to make more decisions before, like when it comes to nutrition, right? Like, so you don't count your calories or even track it or whatsoever. Like, but you have done previously at some point to the point where you are now, you are now at least aware of the base level of stuff that then you don't, now don't have to make less decisions because of your education previously. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Alex 51:41

Like I, I know what it looks like to get enough protein, for example. Mm-hmm. I know, I know. Like what that is. I dunno how

TJ 51:52

Yeah. If that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. Like I always think that like even when, like when I go through periods where I'm not tracking, Good. Yeah, no, I can see that. There're people that eat and don't think about carbs. The people that don't know what a carb my, they're, my dad doesn't know what carb carbs are here. He does. No he doesn't. He's like, what does that mean? I'm like, what do you mean? What does that mean? It's a fruit or carb. Like I said, what buffalo fruit was healthy. Like what people genuinely, people dunno, like, so you know what I mean? And I guess like, again that's simplicity on the up. Do you see me just slide there? Nope. I think this means, this is time to end this podcast. Okay, Um, is there any final, final things you wanna say about, uh, simplifying strength and conditioning that you might have brought up on your, on your talk, but we have not discussed? Um,

Alex 52:49

the simplest way or the easiest way to simplify your training and easy and simple aren't the same. Um, is just to get a coach just outsource every single decision.

TJ 53:03

Yeah, a hundred percent. Like, not just in training, right? It's to simplify anything, anything that you want to do. Getting a coach is like a superpower. Oh

Alex 53:12

yeah. I, I think it probably says every single podcast as well, but it just is like modeling behavior and like modeling what you do on, on someone who's already done it. It's makes like so much easier.

TJ 53:23

Well, it just, it frames the decisions better. That you have to make. And it also eliminates the decisions that you thought were important, that are not important. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean?

Alex 53:36

Yeah. Most people, there's nothing is that important. There's not a lot of things which are

TJ 53:39

super important. But again, that's, that's, that's, that's like a real simplification. The amount of times I've had clients and members message me with like, oh, what do you think I should be doing for recovery? And I'm like, no, you're not. You don't need to do anything for recovery. Like, you're fine. Or mobility. The amount of people I've turned off of mobility work, like it's just a waste of time. Like, what are you doing? Like what do you, what are you trying to achieve with this mobility that is not being achieved? Through the weight training and the actual movement training and everything that we've been doing, most people can't really answer that. They wanna be more flexible for what reason? You know, like, and then all of a sudden here's this whole thing that you thought was a thing that you had to do, and you were figuring out like how to do that. Perfect. All of a sudden that's just off the table. Yeah.

Alex 54:27

You know, like, yeah, all like overanalyzing your lips. I was talking to Stephanie Cohen the other day, uh, a couple days ago and she was like, yeah, good enough. And like, she's got a five and a half times body weight

TJ 54:40

deadlift. Jesus Christ. If she says

Alex 54:44

like, it can be good enough, then like, it's probably

TJ 54:47

good enough for everyone listening to this. But again, that's probably, it's the same sort of way that people, rather than just saying, oh fuck, I've gotta go out and I've gotta do lots of slow running to get fit, rather than do this, it's the same thing. Oh fuck, I've just gotta keep lifting for another three months to get stronger. Like, no, I want this one tweak in my thing that's gonna make everything easier. The other thing with tweaks and, and adjusting a lot of form adjustments more often than not, like they make you weaker in the beginning. Like they're, cuz they're addressing weaknesses, Alex.

Alex 55:24

Like movement variability is a good thing, but movement variability when performance is like the key Yeah. Is often like, like pretty, pretty negative

TJ 55:34

in the short zone. Yeah. And also it's like making an an adjustment to your lift to lift heavier doesn't make you, that's not making you stronger. Like that's just, that's just meant the, the number on the bar is higher. Like you haven't got stronger by making this adjustment. Masses Uh, no. Yep. Uh, it is in, in how long is the power lifting meet? Oh, it can be locked. All right. Maybe. Okay. But if we take a snapshot of your performance, it would be a total of less than two. Less than a minute. Right? If you did, if you just combined the three lifts. The, the three attempts, all nine lifts. It could be maximally nine minutes. No, but no one's lifting for nine. No, I mean, like the actual time from the beginning of the lift to the end of the lift. All right. Let's say even a maximum nine minutes. All right. That's how long the ma the number on the bar matters. Right. Other than that, it don't matter. Yeah. And for bragging rights, oh yeah. Shit, that's really important. And all the, and, and for girls to like beat, like for guys, girls are really impressed. No, they're not guys. Only guys are impressed. And actually for girls, guys are actually impressed. Definitely impressed by girls lifting heavy. That's, that's actually true. And girls are as well. Girls are really impressed by other girls lifting heavy. Yeah. Do like, do you guys are imp but the girls aren't impressed by any guys lifting heavy ever. No. It's expected. If you don't

Alex 57:15

by that, you're not strong. Anyway,

TJ 57:18

we should pull you wrap up. Yes. Alright. Right mate. Uh, do you want people to find you and stuff?

Alex 57:24

Yeah, you'll find me. Alright. They can go to kabuki strength.com. They can go on my Instagram, which is

TJ 57:31

coach Alex Kabuki. Either under scores in that or is that all one word? There's probably under school. Cool. All right. robbie-muscle.com for all programming and coaching. I would appreciate some comments in the YouTube. if you have any questions for next time, I'm gonna get a, Alex will come back, back on. You wanna come back on once a month or something like that? A little Maybe. Maybe less. Maybe more. We'll see actually definitely a lot more. I'm not gonna do you more once in a month. Um, let us know in the comments below if you have any questions. Um, or just bump up the algorithm by putting a comment in there and give us some reviews. We've, we've been doing this podcast now for quite a bit and you can see the improvements that we've made. Look how, look how good this is. The first time Alex has been on the podcast and he's been audible properly, like, I'm so chuffed. You're still echoing, mate. I dunno why I can turn it down. Have you got it on the, oh, mate. Oh, you gotta hold it closer to you. You sound so much better. Oh no. Just turn the echo down. No, but you. How when you hold it close to your mouth, like it's much better. I, I will do like mine's here off to the side, but it's high. I have to stand it up. It makes a huge difference. I'll put it here. That, yeah. Is that better? Happy? Ah yes. I mean if that doesn't deserve a five star review on Spotify or Apple Podcast, I dunno what does give those reviews really do help. I know it seems like it's an insignificant thing and it's like, ah, I've listened to 'em a few. But no, give those reviews. They really do help. Thank you guys so much for listening and we'll see you in the next one. Cheer.