TJ 0:08

you've been on the podcast already. So, and that was a fantastic episode just at the start of the pandemic. So go back into this or that if people listening can go back to listen to that subscribe to the podcast, of course. But Dan, what have you been doing since then? Because I think we're just going to go with this.

Dan 0:25

All right. Okay. Well, that was well, it's about two years ago. Exactly. And it was quite, yeah, it was quite a. Well, quite a change for everyone. From our point of view, suddenly we realized no one is not coaching anymore. And I don't think anyone has expected that to happen. And so therefore we, we had to rethink how we did things and yes, we, we worked around webinars and we worked around providing information that you could do online and not on the pitch. But it really helped us focus ourselves a lot more on exactly what the coach wanted rather than perhaps just working generally about, oh, this is good stuff to put out there. And we we'd like everybody else had a chance to consider things reflect. And it was, I mean, a terrible time in some ways, in a good time, in other ways. And I think we've, we've come out. Better for it. And we're working hard to just keep improving things. I think we've, we try to listen a lot more.

TJ 1:33

Yeah. I'm all, I'm always wary when people say come out of it, but yeah, definitely. If we can pick up the lessons, then we'll do that.

Dan 1:41

Yeah. Oh yeah. And I think you're completely right. And it's probably a bit lazy for me to say, to come out of that. I think the fact that, we're what I probably mean by that, and I'm not trying to dig myself out of it is that we're actually on the field now coaching and training, which is fantastic. I think what I've noticed I'm not the only person's to assist, but what I've noticed is that younger players are a little bit further behind than they were before, and this is a struggle for them. And I think that some players who were probably just hanging on in there have decided to leave the game and that's caused some teams to really struggled to get the numbers out, which is. Which I hope is going to change.

TJ 2:23

I, I have definitely seen that. I think, you know, there are, there are lessons to have been learned and then there are lessons that is easy as they are to learn, or when you're put into a situation such as the pandemic, there are also very easy to one learn when you go back to what we've been talking about, like normal life. And they're like, I think that, you know, in terms of like people wanting to play the game or understanding why they play the game is really important. And I think that like one of the teams that I coached, like that was one of the biggest takeaways that we had was like, as soon as they could get, as soon as it was, the government allowed them to be on a field plane, They did so. And they said, okay, we're going to go through. And even if we haven't got any games for the next six months, we're still going to keep going. And actually what that ended up being was a really bloody long season and they kind of got burnt out, but then they over committed, you know, and, and the last thing you want, and I think this is why a lot of people might've suddenly sort of dropped out and hopefully we'll be working their way back to the game is the forgot, the, the enjoyment factor that you get from rugby. And I'm hoping that this will lead to a lot more people coming back gradually, you know, and more and more consciously as well.

Dan 3:40

I think I liked that that scent more consciously, because I think what's happened is that people think that their boredom threshold is very low and they forget that. Things take effort and you can't be entertained all the time. I mean, we, we talked a little bit about Peter and the danger of it very briefly at the start there. And I think just as bad as the next person, I'm sort of sort of looking at my phone rather than saying, there are times when there's nothing going to be happening and I cannot do anything about it. I'm just going to sit and think. And there's a couple of occasions recently where I've just been sitting there and I've not had a book or my phone maybe waiting for something to happen. And I've just said, well, actually this is quite good for me to be sitting here as painful. And people aren't necessarily former players aren't necessarily going back into playing sport because they think that they've gotta be doing something else, which is unfortunately not rugby related. And it'd be great from the feedback and repeat, but they. They're expecting a lot more from it than there probably wasn't there in the first place. And I think we've just got to be, be able to be bald a little bit, sometimes not get 120% out of something. When in fact we should be getting say 80 or 70% because sometimes you're going to have a bad session. You're going to come away thinking, ah, that wasn't so good. The coach didn't get it right. I wasn't, I was not informed that doesn't mean you leave rugby or you leave the sport. It means that you say that that's going to happen and we've got to be maybe a bit more accepting of that. It's a bit like again, a social media and then you've probably good to avoid this. The rugby pundits. On television are getting a very hard time at the moment. And I mean, I'm just as frustrated as the next person when I think of pundit gets it wrong, but really does it really matter that much if they are making the wrong calls and if they aren't seeing it for what it is, it's just, it's just a game. And we could, we could get it right. We could do it better. We can do everything better, but it's entertainment. And sometimes these personalities just say completely the wrong thing and they don't get it. Right. And maybe we just need to be a little bit more accepting and just get on with things and roll with it. Maybe I'm getting too grumpy, maybe I'm or maybe getting too.

TJ 6:10

Yeah, I think in general, I just think the more this time away, I think that's given people both. More time to think about what they want to do and how they want to play rugby and enjoy rugby or, or, or choose to not do that. But it's also given people with Tik TOK and all this stuff coming up. Like it's giving people more things to be distracted by and actually fill up those gaps and fill everything up. And a lot of I'm experiencing quite a few people now that are either taken up rugby for the first time, or they've not played for six to six plus years, let's say, and that, and that, and they're coming back and they want to do it just because they enjoy it. And I think that's really good. And I think that's what the RFQ, I believe we're trying to get people down to do, but I also think that there's a lot of. You know, there's a lot of thing rugby's changing and society as society changes as with it as well, or site is changing and rugby is changing with it. And I think that does that mean that like, it has to be completely different and we can't embrace whatever's new. And does it, or does it mean that like who we appealing rugby to or who we try and to get rugby to appeal to is something that I concern myself with a bit as well, because I think that it's now becoming a lot more of a spectator first sport sort of like American football as opposed to rugby has always been, you know, since I've known it a sport that just loads of people play. And then, you know, a lot of people will go and enjoy watching rugby as well. But like, you know, it's not uncommon for local small town teams in England to have up to five different teams, even more so in Australia. Like, and that's sort of seen, I keep seeing that diet.

Dan 8:07

Well, I think there's a couple of things tied up in that. I mean, when you come back to review, just start rugby you've, you've got to actually be fit to play the game. And the difficulty comes when these people rock up and within about five minutes, they are absolutely shattered to start with. But also there's these players are coming along and they're picking up niggling injuries, which means they come back and then they disappear again. Cause they've, they've picked up an injury, which they could probably avoid it if they were just a bit fitter. So there's, there's, there's not so sort of the dress, the sort of second thing, what who is before and what is it for? One of the things I've done in the last. Four or five months is I've just got back into referee because there's a shortage of referees where I'm based on based in Bristol and every weekend there's been five to five to 10 games, which have not taken place, or haven't been able to be happened in the right way because there's been no referee. And there's a number of reasons for that. Probably the same as the reasons that some of the reasons that players are dropping out. So there's a lot in that, but the point I was trying to make around that is that I've seen sort of the, the grassroots of the grassroots game in action. And I just wonder why some of these players are playing. Some of them are playing for the joy of it and others are just playing it so they can just be nasty with somebody else. And I just, I just wonder is that. Is is, it's quite hard to referee when somebody is out there. Yeah. You, you want to make a tackle. You want to physically dominate your player, but actually they want to harm them in a quite an unfortunate way. And then of course, when they do that, like they, they try and smash into someone's head with their shoulder quite deliberately. Everybody then becomes very edgy in the game and it just makes for a bad atmosphere. And that's that it's like watching a bit of these clips on kit, took of Sunday league football, where someone comes in with two feet chops, a guy, and they fly in the air. W what, what is possessing our to come to a game of football or rugby with the intent to harm somebody else? That's not sport. I think in a way that we are taken up from where we are.

TJ 10:27

No, I think there's a, I mean, we, we spoke about. The short attention spans and the, the social media is looking for the highlight reels and stuff. And I do think that there's something to that as well. Like you'll see a lot in rugby where, I mean, you even see it at the top level with like Australia or only I in south Australia because I saw it come from their account, but England will do the same. Any country they'll lose a game or even they'll get pumped in a game, but they'll still put three or four highlights up of, of, of their team doing work. And I, I get that, like, you want to appeal and you want to show the highlights. You want to show the things that went well, but that's, it, it kind of goes against what the sport is almost because, you know, if you, if you, if you do take a loss, you take your, you take your licks and you move on. But then also at the same time, like there's nothing wrong with celebrating good moments within a game. So it, it gets difficult. But I think we get a lot of people now potentially that come into rugby just to make that highlight real story. Big hit or big carry or something and not really care about the actual values of the game and potentially now even going even deeper. Jeez, we're going deep to start this already, but I think we did this last time. But potentially I think that like, that's why rugby has its traditional values and it leans into those so hard to begin with because it's very tempting to just in a sport where you can be just a big physical bully to be a big physical bully and to have values where it's all about camaraderie and having beers after the game and respecting the ref, obviously being a huge one. Like I think it needs that in order to survive because if it wasn't, it would be chaos.

Dan 12:11

Yeah. I agree with that. I think that there should be always be a bit of an edge in the game. And the great thing about rugby is a physicality. So we can't. Go away from that when there is obviously very there's there's a lot of concern around head injuries. I think it is more of a concern at the top level because I just feel that sometimes he's placed him to come back very quickly and it doesn't seem to make sense. I know that they're going through various protocols, but from the outside, it doesn't seem to make sense, but I'm interested to think about rugby values overall. I think it's something which is put out there a lot, but how much do people really follow that through? Is there a real culture of following those values? As a person, as a player, because do, do people think I'm playing rugby? Therefore, yeah. After the game we'll we'll shake hands, have a bear and be nice to each other. That's one set of rugby values, but on the pitch, are they looking to cheat their way around the game? Are they looking for the. To find a way to win the game, which doesn't necessarily play within the spirit of the game. And I see that more often than I, then that should be happening. And of course the referee is in a, in a quite difficult position because they're not all see, and they're trying to make judgements. Now, sometimes there are mistakes which aren't put, aren't done to get an advantage of play, goes off their feet. They accidentally come off side because they'd been tricked. They knocked the ball on because they've they've missed time, something, they missed time a tackle, or they get themselves in the wrong body position for tackle. They're not going to get an edge, but other players, well, they will be nickling. Now we just pull your shirt back here. They were just putting their hands on the ball for a bit longer. Now, is it up to you and me to go and tell that person. To change their funnies. Is it up to the RFU the AR are you or any of the, the bodies to tell these players, or is it up to the player to, to do it? I read you have in clock talking, the deliverable manager took him out their values at Liverpool. And one of the thing is that everybody is responsible for everybody who's on the pitch. And if you're on the pitch, you should respect the fact that somebody has helped you get on there, who isn't necessarily Juergen. It is someone who's laid out the, the catch, someone who is cook the meals, someone who's cleaned, the, the changing rooms, all these people are all part of that. Now, do we tell somebody when they walk in the door, this is who you've got to respect, or should they come in through the door and say, actually. I've got to understand my position here. And I've got to understand that I need to respect everybody else, whether they are the captain, the manager, or the bottle washer.

TJ 15:11

I think it's there's a communication aspect, all of that as well. Right? Because you'll get people that feel so appreciative of everything that they, Dan say anything and, and try and make it about them. And step out of line, you'll see that in rugby, rugby teams are usually full of people in one or two camps. You'll get those people that just never say anything. They want to be a cog. They don't want to stand out. They'll play sometimes and they'll buy Def the full sort of standout and then you'll get, and I think this is increasing in teams as I dunno, just as, maybe it's just me noticing as I get older, but you'll get teams now where there's too many. I don't know if this is the PC saying anymore, but they'll say too many chiefs. And like, it becomes an issue because, you know, everyone wants that and I think everyone wants their 2 cents to be heard. And I think it's also really important to communicate your 2 cents as a member of any squad, because what you're trying to do as a rugby sport is function as one and win as one. And so if there's, if there's any loose ends that aren't sure of what they're supposed to be doing, they should be telling you what they're seeing. And so I find that one of the most challenging and fascinating struggles with rugby is that communication aspect is you've always got to be trying to communicate to the rest of your team, what you're seeing and figuring out what they're seeing whilst also not just adding noise, because it's very easy just to add noise. And I think part of that I've found since doing my work. And I'm obviously gonna say this cause I work in strength and conditioning. I do find that being fitter makes all of that so much easier because you're just that anxiety is so much lower. I don't want to send everything that comes easy. And it's one of the biggest benefits I've found with the half backs I've worked with is that they just always say, I can think so much clearer. And it's like, yeah, because you know, your, your heart is so much lower. Everything becomes slower and easier.

Dan 17:06

I think famously Jamie Roberts, the Welsh center talked about the wash fitness regime and how that made such a massive difference to the way that he could operate. Because really within a, once you're on the field within a three or four minutes, if you've made any form of physical contact and run, you'll get a feel nugget. And obviously you, then you recover, but you're in a state of being knackered the whole way, the whole way through. So you've got to be, you've got to be fit. The challenge I think for coaches is that you can't spend your training session, making the players fit. You've got to do lots of other things around that. So you have to rely to a certain extent on the players becoming fit and they go off to the gym and well, who knows what they do in the gym, but some of it isn't very useful as, as you, as you well know, this is

TJ 18:03

where you get the two camps as well. You'll get people. If they're, if they're people that already love the gym, they're going to carry on doing what they already love, which they don't need any more strength because they're already strong enough. I'll always remember when I was so when I worked as an actual rugby coach, I stay away from the fitness stuff. Cause you know, if you're working, if you're coaching two times a week with the game on the weekend, it's just not enough time to do any fitness. So I let them figure out their fitness themself. Obviously they can use me for help. And so I had a second row who was. Late thirties and he huge guy, six foot seven and built very well. And he was like, you know, I dunno what sort of strength and condition I needed to be doing as I'm getting older. And I'm like, dude, just get on the spin bike, get, get yours own to work, working, just get aerobically fit. He hated that I got fined at the end of the season for even making that suggestion to him because he's like, no, I'm a big guy. I'm supposed to be doing big guy stuff. And at the same time, you've got people that go to, they come to rugby because they liked the fitness aspect of it. And they, they're not really worried about the weight. So they're always stay aerobically fit. So we always stay away from things that we are weaker and we lean into the stuff that we're already stronger, but the beauty of rugby and beauty of this is why I love my job is that the demands are so extreme, all ends of the spectrum. They make it a challenging. Problem to solve, but then, but people will only really focus on what they're already good at. And I think, yeah, it's a, it's an issue.

Dan 19:31

I think that's, that could be good. That'd be good that you can focus when you get up, because that gives you confidence.

TJ 19:38

But, but you cannot, you cannot ignore it. Ropy still demands a little aspect. So yeah, I always say that. Bring up, work on your maximums. Absolutely. Yeah. If you're someone who's like Johnny May, will still be working on his speed as much as he can because that's what makes him stand out. But he's also worked on everything else just to bring that up, to make it good enough so that his speed then stands out.

Dan 20:01

Yeah. And I think another thing about fitness that is very important and I'm sure you emphasize this is that you've got to keep, stay fit to stay healthy because certainly my experience of playing in teams slightly lower down the legs when we've gone up. Well, I think it's the same as when you were at the top of the game as well. We've often gone up because our best players have stayed fit throughout the season. Now, some of that's luck you, you never know what sort of knock you're going to take, but it is your muscles. Are you, you're not over straining. You don't pick up re repetitive wides that probably using the wrong terms here, but you let's say you get a bit of a hamstring nickel. If you are fit enough, you get yourself back on the field at the right time. If you're not fit enough, you get yourself back too early and then either you make your hamstring worse or you do something else, which is due to the fact is you sort of hold carrying your hamstrings. So this is the difficulty. I mean, I've, I've known players who at the end of the season, that they're half they're half man, half tape because they, and you just wonder if it's enjoyable. I mean, I've certainly gone onto the pitch very heavily strapped. And you sort of get to the end of it and you think I've survived it, but it's not necessarily hunter. I mean, no play goes on to the pitch filling. They are they're they're not carrying something on. Uh, But I, I don't know at the cha I suppose to change from the coaches. Do you, when do you tell your players to rest? Cause that must be super hard when you are close to the denouement of the season and you just need to get your best players on the field maximum amount of times. Yeah. Yeah.

TJ 21:48

That's that, there's another bunch of tangents we can go up. You can go off on the fact that like, go back to the values. I'm not going to choose to go down this rabbit hole, but there's something for another, another time perhaps about the values of, of rugby and whether rewarding the people that are showing up or, and that are injury free and having confidence in the whole of your squad. Like what is, you know, is that more important than winning your third team Midlands for league, whatever, you know, and that's not to say that those leagues don't matter, but you know, there's not money on those. And, and w again, we go back to why you playing the game in the first place. The other thing I think is this is by far, I believe the most. Under appreciated part of strength and conditioning is the ability to, cause there are, there are injuries that are inevitable or, you know, just freak injuries they happen. But then there are also bunches of injuries that have happened that could have potentially been prevented. You know, and, and you're just, you're just putting yourself in a position to be, have, have much better luck if you're strong and if you're fit and if you're moving well. And then there are injuries that are entirely preventable and even, and especially injuries that happen during training or in the gym. Like those are. Really why they're way too common for what I've seen as far as like you're, you're playing rugby to play rugby. Don't like you're going in the gym to help you play rugby. Then the last thing you should be doing is increasing your injury risk. Like if you've got a bad shoulder and pull-ups exacerbates, it stopped doing pull-ups or, and that's actually just a shout out to someone that recently told me about that. Like, yeah, you've got to find ways around it and really you're utilizing the gym to stay in the game for longer. And if you can be fit and stay in the game for longer as well, like that's like you know, I was, I've recently been the video that's gone out this week on our channel is about staying, you know, playing and enjoying the game as. The funny thing with that is we're all aging. Like, no, one's no, one's not aging right now. So you should all be paying attention to this stuff. And if you've managed it right, like there's Mark Bright at 43 years of age, who I think is the top tri score in the championship right now. There's no, you know, we, we look at age as the numbers that of the years that are keep flicking by, but age is also the wear and tear and the maintenance that you put your body through. And I think if we can manage that during a season, when those seasons add up, you can keep playing on. But also during that season itself, if you can keep more of your players fit you're right. Everyone always talks about how important it is to have a big. Because injuries are inevitable, but I think you could, you could make that number a lot smaller if you just got you, you know, if you just manage that load to help players keep going.

Dan 24:34

Well I think that you're talking about managing the load and one of the, certainly for young players and I see this, I'm working with the, the Bristol bears under fourteens and under sixteens. And when the player is playing with the under sixteens, we are constantly seen that these guys are under a lot of pressure to play for their school, their club, and for the academy. And they are therefore sometimes playing too many times in a week. And because they just want to keep playing. They love it. And every time someone asks you to play, you want to play now, they are hobbling around. What's going to, what are they going to be like in two, three years time, what they're going to drop out because they're going to eventually. Actually, it's just great that I've had three or four days off. And I actually feel I can move. I mean, this, this is the difficulty. I think that if you're a good player, you're in demand and you are under pressure to play on it. I mean, I look back at times in my own work B career when I probably went back sooner because coaches were keen say, right, you need to be back in. If you're not playing, then you might, you, you you're out of contention. And I probably didn't play as well as I should have. And therefore I either picked up, made my injuries worse. I can remember specifically having a long-term hamstring injury because I came back too early with, from a hamstring strain and it's somebody needs. Get these players to rest, but also you, you said about the long preseason when they're so keen to get back. I think a lot of players came back, trained a lot and then found themselves they were, they were shattered knackered. They were just, they'd lost that buzz for the game that I don't know what it was like when you were at school, you obviously at school and a much shorter time away than I was. So when I was school bout 30 odd years ago, 35 years ago, probably I think it's probably better to say I would have a Caesar, a seasonal rupee, a season of another sport and a lot of seasons. So I would be doing three months of rugby, three months of when it was fives, which has been like squash, but with your hands and then three months of cricket. So you'd always be looking forward to playing another sport and it would keep you, you keep your, probably your mind certainly fresh. And if you're not your body. But these, some of these players are playing probably 12 months a year rugby, and perhaps that's

TJ 27:08

too much. Definitely. I distinctly remember you said about players when they're young, always wanting to play and they'll still keep playing. That is true until it's not. I remember when I was 17 and I was playing a senior club rugby, which was, I think it was level seven at the time, just from my local club. On the odd occasion I'd play. I play Colts the day after I played school rugby on a Monday or a, when I would play school rugby on a Wednesday and then I'd have county training on Monday and I think Friday and it was just, yeah. And then I'd have, I dunno county games on Wednesday. It was just, and it just, this was like an, all of that came together. Maybe like October, November of that year. And I remember getting into December. And luckily my first team coach at the time was Peter angle Dow. Who's a, he coaches in South Africa now he coached a Greek is very good coach and he was my mentor at the time as well. And I told him about this and I was like, look, I can't, I can't keep doing rugby. Like this is too much. And he told me, it was like, okay, no problem. Like take, take a few weeks off. Like we headed into Christmas, just take all of December off. And I remember that I wasn't in the pool when they did the selections and whatever. And then they set the captain or the second team came up to me and he was like, are you getting so how come you're not available on Saturday? I just said, I can't play. Like I've had too much. He says, oh, so you can play. So you're here. So you can't play for us. And he was really trying to push me to still keep playing for the seconds because he's like, you're young. Like, what are you like, how, how is that possible? But I think mental burnout is a thing. And then I also think that when you're young and you only know rugby as. Pursuit of essentially like excellence, you forget about, and the competitive nature of it, you forget about how just enjoyable it is and how good it is to keep going back to your mates. And I think it's still possible to go back to that because you look at Mike Tinder, who's still still playing club rugby. That must be does he live near you

Dan 29:08

down that way? I think it is in cross shit. Isn't he? So he say, yeah, he's suddenly playing for Anna. That's brilliant to see because he just loves, loves, loves the game. And I can remember playing high level on a, on a Saturday and then on the Sunday going and playing for my old university team in the front and a Sunday front and Some will say to me, but why I said just because I enjoy playing, it's just playing with your mates and there is a different sort of, is a different sort of pressure. You it's great to play the pressure games. I certainly remember when I played sort of try and trying to break into the bath first team. So I played a lot of second team games and but they weren't league games. So I missed league the, the, the, the excitement of playing a game where there was something on the. And so you, you need to have those six different experiences. I mean that, I mean, that's, that's a personal point of view, of course. And I look at some players now look at my own son and he says, I can only really play one or two games. There will be a weekend. I think when I was your age, I was probably playing three games of rugby a week and playing five. So football and playing squash and trying to play as many sports as I possibly can. I'm playing some football as well. So was I actually not as fit as I should have been. Was I a complete idiot? Is he, is he being is he not being as physically could be, is, is it how different is it now? I mean, w why was I able to do that then? And I'm not a particular, I wasn't particularly, I was athletic, but I wasn't like the super fitness person there is it, is it kits now saying I don't have the energy check.

TJ 30:54

I'm going to ask you that the game, I mean, as a, as a coach, like you've seen, you know, and running better rugby coach and for as long as you have you, you you've seen the game or rugby coach weekly, shall I say, is it, is it now rugby

Dan 31:09

coach week? Yeah, roughly we used to be, we used to send out a thing called better rugby coaching, which was an email, but we now call it rubbing. So we've just was a yes, you're right to say that. But I it's, I can't remember what we changed that, but anyway, yes. Go

TJ 31:24

on. So you've done that for years now. You must've seen the game. Yeah. You, you, you would have done it when I first got into coaching 10, 15 years ago. So the game has massively changed in that time. What people were selling us at the game has changed. Number one, what do you think some of those changes are? And can you. Reflect on what those look like with the six nations, but also is, is that change at that level, a reflection of changes that we're seeing at the lower levels as well. Cause I think it's very easy and I think this is one of the things that I've seen with with rugby is that they keep changing the laws to, to manipulate what they're seeing in the professional and the international game and the elite game, whether those laws are even necessary or even necessary or, or improving the game at an amateur level is something that I'm not sure is even really considered. So I'd like your opinion on that, but yeah. W w what changes do you think there have been within the

Dan 32:28

game? Well, I think the shape of the game has changed Some things have made the game change, just like things like the Sufis. The fact that the ball is tends to be a bit stickier than it was because of the bull manufacturers are better. And if anyone goes to a training session and the ball is slippery, they know that that the whole shape of the game changes you just can't be. And that sort of for G and

TJ 32:50

they'll just drop it, they'll just drop it and now they'll switch it out. So the grippy, but I will say if it's not perfectly pumped up as well, no, we're not gonna use that one.

Dan 32:58

So I think that change, I think the expectations of what you get trained sessions has changed. I think overall the general level of coaching has improved and that's because there are more coaches who are more invested in coaching properly. Yeah. And there's a lot more access to information. Players go into training sessions are expecting a little bit more from the training sessions the shape of the game. Changed enormously up to a certain level. Because the time you have to coach and train is not, you still at a grassroots level. If you can get two training sessions in a week and a game, then you've done well at the pro game. I think in the last four or five years, it's probably not changed that much either because there's only so much time that is available to players and coaches. Yes. There that analysis is probably improved. I think that the, the types of play that are available might have changed a bit, but I don't think it's changed enormously in the last four or five years. You're right. That the, the laws have changed a few things around the edges of the game. I think one of the most important thing is that there's a lot more emphasis on tackling lower. The game hasn't gone soft when players if a player gets a short to the head, then. There net needs to be a very serious look at why that happened. And if if the players can tackle lower a lot more than basketball and you, we certainly saw some games in the six nations where there was no even thought to challenge whether it was a high tackle. Cause there were no high times yet obviously the, the big, the big story was the red card and started the England versus Ireland game. And I don't think there's any doubt. It was a red card.

TJ 34:45

That is a story, right? I think that's, I think that shows what what's happening. I mean, it's, I think that's normal and I think it's what we said about injuries as well. Like those when you're tackling that high, I think that is entirely preventable. You know, you have incidents where someone's falling and they hit their head or, you know, a nasty, nasty collision with two potentially two teammates when they come together and they make a tackle at the same time. You'll see. But if you're just generally going in and tackling that high yeah. That's that's technique.

Dan 35:15

Yeah, I agree. And definitely the, the, the question came did it spoil again and in a sense it did because you want to see 15 feet versus 15 right from the start. And obviously Ireland and England came there to win. There was a lot on the game. And as soon as is 40 versus 15 men, not, it wasn't necessarily a foregone conclusion, but about level it's probably going to be that way. So as a spectacle, in one sense, it did spot it as in another way, it was a great game because England. Had to make some changes. They, they made those changes and they were, that was fascinating for that. But islands in the end had to adjust. And that was interesting, but I don't think I think a lot of people got very fussed about it and it, it was 14 versus 15. That was what it was. We just needed to accept that. And the thing is, of course, if someone is paying a hundred pounds plus for a ticket and the game immediately changes shape right from the start it's like the athlete game coming to the week before when they were down to 13 because of the vagaries of the front row rules and that sort of thing. It's very tough. The thing is, of course, if that happens in a pickup game on a Saturday when things thirds play all of so Bernadette's seconds, then there's different. Because the game won't be shaped so much by one player going off right at the top level. It, this, so this it's all on the margin and eventually those players are gonna run out of steam. So I think at the top level, it's interesting, you say they're looking to gain entertainment. Our judgment of entertainment is very different. Some people think of entertaining game is when it is extremely physical. Other people think it when they pass the ball around a lot others, when they think they sidestep some say when players are physically dominate another player, it's I. The game has got, you've got to approach each game and look for the things that you're going to enjoy. The difficulty is of course that the head coaches are all there to win games. And three head coaches came away from the six nations thinking they had a bad six nations. One must delight that they won a game. That's the Italian coach and then the French and the Irish were probably quite pleased. So yeah, it's always the case. The knives are out for the ones who don't finish in the top two and it can be done for instance, in, in England's case a few small margins and it could've gone the other way, but that's equally the case for Wales and equally the case probably for, for Ireland France, could've quite easily lost against Wales. England could have quite easily lost against Wales and. The knives will be Eva, but it's, it's just the, I think someone said it, one of the commentators said it, they would they would love to be able to go out next week and replay the game. The great thing with grassroots, we're busy. You can often, there's only a week until your next game. The six nations happens February, March, and then you've got all that time until another one. Ah, very frustrating for an international coach, especially when you were so close and yet so far.

TJ 38:41

Definitely. I think we put it on a, a bit too sometimes. I mean, it's right there on a pedestal that six nations, cause it's is once, once a year you get one chance at each team and then it's gone and then that's it. And because it's only, you know, five games, I mean for the last few years, you could even rule out the early game each eat the consequences of every single game. And therefore every single action of every game means it's that, you know, that it's, so it seems so important. But then again, and this is something that I've thought about, you know, as a coach, as far as like Eddie Jones, his job, people will say, you know, England or gladly take that. If this means, you know, they'll take a couple, even coming for four for fifth and a few for a few six nations, if it means they're going to win the world cup, but that world cup is even less of a snapshot. Like it's such a small, like you would've thought England did everything right in 2019 and they still, you know, they'll reflect on that world cup. Not. As a negative because they didn't B what was a one performance by South Africa that was just phenomenal and potentially still not as good as the England performance that they put in against the all blacks the week before. And every south African watching. This is probably going to crucify me in the comments just for suggesting that. But I think it's true. Like, like Ireland have never got past a court final for so long, and I don't think there's any voodoo or anything crazy. It's just, it is really hard. And there's only one team in their world every four years that can win the world cup. And that, you know, for every one team that is a winner, there are what 19 loses. And so

Dan 40:25

I quite like, yeah, yeah. I quoted the golf idea that a, the best way to enter a golf tournament is to say, this is the field of 80. Let us say. One person's going to win. So if I judge myself on where I went or not, then I I'm always, I'm generally going to be unhappy. And the six nations, just to be saying, right, it's fantastic chance to test yourself and maybe we should get rid of the bonus points in the table and just take, take away some of the, the edge in winning it is. Because it lessons, I think that the spectacle, I think I mean like the lions, the light, the previous lines tall was ridiculous. It became It's just, I

TJ 41:11

thought I thought that that that might be the death of the lines that, that took

Dan 41:15

well, I think, I think it, I personally, I think he died in Afton 1997. I expect I'll be hammered. No, it was at 99, 7 days. Fantastic tour, obviously a great spirit some great videos. And from then on, it's just become more and more commercial. And the commentators become part of that because they say, gee, you know, his first lions thing, duh, of course it'd be amazing to put on the lunch shirt. But it becomes, it becomes a much bigger thing than it should be. It is, it is an honor, but it, it should be more about the sport and the joy of the sport and the joy of movement that. All in. I've got to we've got to win this. And I mean, Warren Gatland Gatland was just wanted to win. He produced teams that were successful. I didn't enjoy the way that the lions play. Generally. Obviously I was pleased when they, they did, they did win games, but it wasn't played. They didn't play in a particularly inspiring yeah. Inspiring way. And they are, I mean, when they won in Australia, they won it by winning scrum penalties over and then eventually the Australians were punched drunk and then they, they started to play. Well, I would quite like put together side just to go out. Place place and rugby try. Some things do not necessarily play like the bar brands. And I think the barbarians has become like that way. So they've got to play in a certain way. They've got to do, they've got to almost be silly and that sort of thing. And I just, I just think it's just, we, we, we put too much emphasis on a perceived value and just don't just go and play the game for the sake of playing the game. And w when, when you turn out and you run onto the pitch, as I said, after about three or four minutes, your lungs are burning. You don't think you're going to last another 18 minutes. You do. There's something inside you, which does that. And last the joy of it. And I think you said very early on when we're talking and we're trying to make this thing as spectacle, and let's forget making a spectacle. Let's just enjoy it because. Players are trying their hardest and enjoying what they're doing to a certain extent, enjoying what they're doing. They're trying to impose their own skill on the game and the coaches helping support that. Let's enjoy it for that, as opposed to we want them to see them do this number of this type of pass, or do this sort of spectacular stuff. Some sometimes games with no tries can be absolutely thrilling because it's great attack is then thwarted at the last moment by great defense. So why not? And also sometimes games in the rain. I mean, a six nations game can just change on change on the weather. So yeah, not quite sure where I was going. Quite good with that last point. Yeah. But I just think overall we've got to avoid creating. Well, it's creating a monster really and recognizing what the game should be. It's like, should we have an all singing, all dancing spectacle when you go to a match or should you go for just a match? And I think the answer is actually it's a match day experience and the match day experience. This is another rabbit hole I think is spoiled by the fact that some people do not sit and watch a game for 18 minutes. They were up and down the whole time. And that, I mean, I haven't been to an international since 2012 do Zealand versus what England versus New Zealand, if there could ever top that as an experience because I just knew that I'm just going to be frustrated by people getting up and down the whole time to go and get another bear. And. Maybe the day when you can have a seat and a beer pops up in front of you, that would be a, so

TJ 45:18

everything that'd be perfect. Cause then yeah, you're right, because it is part of that match day experience is, I mean, it's the match is watching the game, but then it is, there is a good social aspect to it as well. I can imagine. I think, I think what we've got on the stand is particularly as, as, as players is how people want to appreciate the game. You touched on it a little bit as far as, you know, if, if every player just accepts their role. And so does what know, just tries their best to get the enjoyment out of it. I think sometimes rugby you know, especially in England is it's quite a long season, but in general, if you're, if you're in the midst of a rugby season or even just dying out pre season, it seems quite daunting. It can be seen as a bit of a grind. But I think if you can flip that on its head and you take enjoyment from the fact that, you know, your, your, your being able to participate in this amazing sport that you can solve in so many different ways, it can help. I'd like to ask you, cause you've mostly worked with coaches when you do coach with players, like, what do you think players can do as they approach individual training sessions? We see a bit more as to how professionals approach it, but how much is can take some of that away as well. Like, you know, even if they're just trained in the twice a week or whatever, there's a lot of things that they, I think they gonna take away and then how they, in how that they can approach a rugby training session in order to not just to improve, but like get the most enjoyment and why those two things probably aren't even very mutually exclusive.

Dan 46:54

Yeah. I mean, I know you sent the question to me bef before we came online. And so it was a quite interesting one to reflect on. I think the first thing is that players have got to recognize that they've got to put themselves forward. They've got to create the energy themselves just as much as they expect the coach to create the energy. They can't just go there and expect to be entertained and automatically motivated. I'm going there to make the most out of this session. So if an exercise has been run, I want to put myself at the front as much as I can. I don't want to sit and wait for things to happen to me. I think the other thing is to just know that you've got to go through some sorts of pain. It's going to be hard. One of the things I'm quite interested at the moment is is the pain of reading and writing. I just came across it in a book the other day, but I've also been thinking about it in trying to help my players think more deeply about what they're doing. If you have to sit down and read a book that is not a straightforward thing, it's, doesn't come easy. We're much happy to sit and listen or watch some television or something like that. So you read a book and you get a lot more out of reading a book when you take the time, sit down and maybe make some notes write about it. And if someone says to you, can you explain what's going on, sit down and try and write it. Now, not everyone is going to be Shakespeare or take a rallying and be able to just write naturally, but that is effort. And if you want to really get something out of a training session, be prepared to go and sweat. Be prepared to also ache and be prepared to have to think deeply about what you're doing, because then you're going to get a lot more out of it. If you, yeah, you naturally there'll be laughs you can't get a bunch of rugby players in one place and they're not to be some loves. It's almost impossible. I can't think of an occasion where I haven't been in a train session and there's been no. Laughs.

TJ 49:03

Yeah. That was that's never going to like that's no, I can't think of that habit like everyone. And that's why everyone thinks that their teams like the best team. Like it's a good, it's a good thing. Yeah,

Dan 49:14

definitely. Yeah. But I think the other thing that you have to understand is that you're not going to agree with everyone. There are going to be people in that team who are not your type of person. Now you've got to be prepared to accept their point. You don't have to believe in it. And you will, and sometimes the coach is going to stay stuff. There's not going to be what you like. And sometimes the coach is going to drop you and you cannot and you have to be resilient about it. If they're bullying you, that's different, but you've got to be able to say, sometimes someone's going to say you're wrong. You haven't made enough effort that you're not getting that right. And if you are good enough, strong enough, you will be able to bounce back and get on. And that is that's one of the reasons why you should play sport, because it allows you to be in a place where if you make a mistake, it doesn't matter as much as making mistake in maybe other walks of life. Cause there's always next week, that is the worst, the worst. Yeah.

TJ 50:24

You're like sorry. I have K in there because that is like the biggest thing I always try and say now with people with trainers, I reflect on my ears, especially like early twenties, late teens. And I was trying to really try, eventually make rugby my career and do all of that stuff. And I remember I was a back road, so that's always in any club you go to ever back is always the most competitive position. And so I was essentially probably on reflection, like petrified of making mistakes. Cause I knew if I made a few mistakes, I wouldn't start the following weekend or even worse, I'd be dropped to the, to the 18, like, and that like, like that my ego hated that idea. So therefore I would just do everything I could. I knew I was already good at mostly, you know, I wouldn't put myself out there. I wouldn't try and take on new roles. I wouldn't even involve my. And when I reflect on that, like, what's the purpose of training? It's training, it's practice. Like that's, if you're going to make mistakes, like make them there, because that's the only way, like you're never going to just go, okay, now I'm going to try and develop a 30, 30 meter left-handed spin pass, and you're never gonna do it the first time. You're not even going to do it the first a hundred times. You've got to get those reps in and you're going to fail with those reps. And usually you've got the skill acquisition science guys talking about it. And I know that there's some people that have the thought of it doesn't even matter how many of those reps are failures, as long as you just keep getting repetition in with the idea of whatever it is you're trying to achieve. So we say this 30 meter spin pass it. Doesn't actually the result of what you're, you're each repetition. Isn't important. The it's just the intention. As long as you keep doing it, you're going to build up that volume to get better. And I think so many. So many players and athletes like that, that sort of don't want to do that. They want to train as if it's a match or trainers, if, and even in the gym as well. They're afraid to lift slightly lighter weight than they did before, because what, there's no reason I, you're not going to get weaker because you're lifting lighter weights. You might actually get stronger because you've used, you've adjusted your, your technique and you're lifting better. It's, it's funny that we don't, we're so afraid to, to make mistakes and take back steps, but it's also completely understandable. But I think the more we can bring awareness to that, like the better people's trying to experience and the results of those training experiences can be,

Dan 52:57

And also to add, add to that, is that a trend is not just about the game training is about lots of other things that if you, if you play rugby just to play the game, Then you probably joining for the wrong reasons. And yeah, it is about meeting people, enjoying other people's company, but also there are, there's plenty of life lessons in that. I'm an obligation. So you don't do, you don't play rugby for life lessons, but there are life lessons in there. So I would say that, yeah, from a, from, from a players point of view, you've got to bring some energy, you've got to be prepared to make some mistakes. And you've also got to be prepared to go through a bit of pain. And if that's a physical and mental pain, that's fine. I mean, pain in a positive way. Of course not in a, in a negative way. And yeah, it's. What's changed perhaps in the last five, 10 years is that we are very easily distracted or there are more distractions if you had a break in training and you allowed the players to have their phones out in the pitch, you know, that most of them will go check their phones and what is going to have changed in the last half an hour. It's probably very, very little, absolutely nothing. No. There is, and

TJ 54:20

you're on the training pitch and there's nothing you can do about it.

Dan 54:23

Yeah. Well the only just before Christmas, I referee the game and the hooker his partner was expecting a baby. So every 10 minutes he checked on the sideline where they was he was needed.

TJ 54:34

That's the best, that's the benefit of having phones available because otherwise he wouldn't have even been able to go to the game to do

Dan 54:40

that. So. That that was that's excusable, but I mean, I'm just as bad as the next person I've got. I'm speaking to you here. I've got my WhatsApp switched off. My phone is under my papers here and it's just nice. I've looked at my phone. I only looked at it to see where it was in check my social media and that's, and it's refreshing. And so maybe one of the great things about Ruby trainees, you just spend an hour and a half away from your phone, which must be a good thing.

TJ 55:13

And to go back to your, your, when you were talking about thinking all the time and being distracted, like there's not like that's one of the best things. I still go and play touch rugby wherever I am, if there's time for it to be local to me, I'll go and do it because I can't, I can't play rugby anymore. Cause my concussions, I do jujitsu and I do touch rugby and those two things and coaching as well. When I'm, when I'm coaching. Those three environments when I'm in them. I'm not thinking about the rest of the world or any, any of those problems. I'm, I'm completely in that moment which is just bloody fantastic. And I think as far as talking about the role of fitness, the, the, the fitter, you are the easier those moments. But I do find that 100%, the easier it is to be in those moments and those moments be like clearer. Maybe you're still in the moment when you're, when you're, when you are really enacted. But that moment is just loud noise of how exhausted you are. Whereas when you're comma, like you can allow me to progress my jujitsu. It's allowed me just to enjoy the touch rugby and even playing with. Old blokes and there's old women there as well. And, you know, we're all just having a laugh, very different from my, my proper playing days. But it's just as enjoyable because you're, you're in that moment. I'm not comparing that moment to go, nah, this isn't the same as when I had, you know, a crowd of 5,000 people watching me play for potent or whatever, you know, it's, it's none of that. It's just, this is this moment right now. And what's my next, what's my next job or my next challenge in this moment. And then occasional reflections of, oh, this is pretty cool.

Dan 56:55

Yeah. I'm always fascinated by pro gophers who guns playing Randall, go with their friends and you think, well, they must, they must just enjoy, enjoy the game. And I mean, I, I play golf and that's a great, that's a great way of escaping and not looking at phone, but there are people I play with who will. We'll be checking their phone as we're going around. And I think that that is, I, I think it's bad. It's bad manners personally, to check your phone during a round of golf, unless there is something both. I mean, my son a couple of weeks ago was checking his phone, but he'd just been to a job interview as hoping for the call back. So that was our I'll allow that like the the guy waiting to hear whether his wife was going into labor or not. I think I probably would say that going to play a game with golf, if your wife was just going to leave, it's probably pushing it because I'm a rugby where you are, the hookers is, might learn a little bit different, but I could be for another, another discussion.

TJ 58:00

I think there is just to finish off, like I do think like there's a huge movement of the minute and I Somehow in my life, I've always, and I felt like I've always ended up just to like a couple of years ahead of the curve. And that's probably just because that's my field of awareness. Like I'm not aware of this thing until I'm in it. And then I see it grow and grows once I'm in it. But meditation is, is getting up there. Ironically, there's like hundreds, if not thousands of apps on your phone that you can use to meditate, but that's actually something that I've been starting to use with the athletes that I coach and the players that I coach, because I think especially because sometimes rugby Canada, if you let it add to the stresses that you've got to do, yes. There's the moments in the games that like, are, you cannot replicate in terms of like life enjoyment, but then there's also, there is just a. You know, four hours plus on your weekly schedule, plus being able to stay fit, plus the injuries that potentially come as part of it, you know, it can be seen as somewhat of a selfish endeavor, but it's not, it can't be the only source of your stress management and stress management. Again, as we've spoken about earlier, factors that can help you keep playing as you age and keep enjoyment from the rugby is like lowering that amount of stress. And just as tough as it is to sit down and just read a book. It's also just tough to sit down and do nothing for, you know, and they start people at 10 minutes because they think who, because no one has no one doesn't have 10 minutes, you know? I actually tried to recommend at least 20 to 30 minutes, because again, you will have that time, but that's when that time actually then makes you more productive you're you're then in control of your brain or. So that you so that those extra 23 hours or whatever, or minus the eight hours of sleep actually then are way more in control than they would be. Had you be under slept overstressed and your mind racing. Like that's no way to live. And at the end of the day, like we spoke about the reasons for playing rugby and it is just another way that we try and get through life and enjoy it as best we can.

Dan 1:00:20

Hmm, definitely. Definitely. I mean, I think this is something becoming clearer and clearer to me and I need to look into is how to. Calm your mind, however, however you do it, because I think that would be well, suddenly speaking completely selfish would be really good for me.

TJ 1:00:40

But if, if, if you're, if it's helping you out, then, you know, they say, put your life vest on before assisting others. It's the same thing. Right? So if you, if you're able to help people better and speaking of which you are, you said you working with the Bristol academy. Where else are you working at at the minute? And how else can people get more insights into the coaching and the rapidity?

Dan 1:01:03

Well I'm lucky. I'm very busy with rugby out every night of the week. So with the Bristol bears under sixteens on the forties, on under sixteens program working really enjoying myself at a local club in Bristol called Brook playing, been helping out there with their, a little bit with their first team and one of the girl's teams on the Android teams and But I suppose the, the most Roberto during the week is I'm working with the university of Bristol women's team, which is, is great, complete different challenge rent, enjoy that. So that's my coach here at the moment, a rugby coach weekly, obviously it's my day job, some editor of that. And we are always looking to listen find out more, you know, what is going on, what's different, what can we do differently? So that's always interesting talking and rattling on. As I had to today has made me think about a few things as well. And yeah, that's my main, that's what tends to fill up my days like

TJ 1:02:00

meditation. I'll put a link to rugby coach weekly in the links below this video and this podcast. I'm a member I'd highly, I'd highly recommend it, especially for players. I think as we said, like, As play as how you can sort of help shape and help improve your, your rugby training experience. It's not, you know, you don't have to. I mean, that's actually a very good idea. I th I would welcome as a coach, someone saying, Hey, we want to work on this. What do you think of this drill? And you, you know, send sense or a game, you know, send those ideas. But there's also just a lot of thoughts on the managing the game of rugby and how to play it. And I think rugby is, as you know, it's getting more and more physical, but it's also, yeah, there's deeper and deeper tactical levels that we can play the game. So the more thinking that you do better, that can be and I think that, you know, if you're, if you're considering it, and if you want to improve your, your knowledge as a rugby player, rugby coach weekly is is a fantastic resource.

Dan 1:03:00

Oh, well, thank you for say now we're always interested to hear from people on what they're doing, how they're doing it. We don't have, don't have all the answers and we want to find out more. So we're just, we just love listening to what people are going to say. So yeah. Thanks very much for saying that.

TJ 1:03:16

No, no problem. I want to thank you for your quote that you told me two years ago. I still repeat on a couple on a, on a, on a regular basis, at least at least one or two times a month is when you said about how. There are a lot of coaches who have 10 years of X or 10 years of coaching, but they actually have one year of experience that they've just repeated 10 times.

Dan 1:03:41

It's not mine. It's not my quote, by the way. It's someone else I can't remember.

TJ 1:03:46

Yeah.

Dan 1:03:50

Apologies for the person. Yeah. I mean it's often repeated and I think it's a good, you're always changing. I've just published an article by Dave, all red, who was Johnny Wilkinson's kicking coach. And he says he is always refining and changing. So I think that the best coaches are, and yeah, if you're not different certainly in five years, time to what you were and, you know, perhaps you need to think again about why you're in it.

TJ 1:04:18

Yeah. Like you kind of have no choice, not even as it, like, especially as a coach, because you're imparting your experience onto everyone. Yeah. But as a, as a human, right, you are, as we say, as I said earlier, like everyone is aging, so use your experience and, and, and use it for the benefit as opposed to just the decline in, of, of whatever the biological systems are going at, you know?

Dan 1:04:48

Well, yeah. Oh, that's great. I'm glad. I mean, I've just really, I, I, well, first of all it's just great to chat about Ruby and you asked some great questions, which I I've rambled on. I've made me think a lot actually about coaching and players and that sort of thing. So yeah, I think there's a few articles to come out of what you've made me and linked

TJ 1:05:08

me to them and I'll share them out and we'll get you back on then. This has been great once again. Thank you so much for giving up your time to come on.

Dan 1:05:16

Thank you. Thank you.