TJ 2:13

so I'm not going to give you a big intro because again, you are the most listened to guests we've had on the podcast. So if they don't know who you already are, then they should go back and add to that already vastly high number. But what are you doing at the minute?

Dr Jake Reed 2:27

So right now I'm still teaching at the university of Northern Iowa and I just received word that all things are go for me to have tenure there. So that'll be one more hurdle. So that'll be nice. And then I'm still coaching our peak clients, all the time, training and diet and all that kind of stuff.

TJ 2:48

I was going to ask if you have a, well, actually I was, I looked it up. If you have a specific, niche, That you work with with the RP guys, but it doesn't seem like it's, oh, it might be something specific then.

Dr Jake Reed 2:59

Well, I thought you were going to go a different way. I don't have a specific clientele that I work with. I like, honestly, everybody, what I prefer to work with are the people kind of in my scenario, like I'm a father of three, I have a, almost five, almost three and a nine month old and essentially two jobs. So having and I have my own goals, physique related and just, you know, training related goals. And so it's, it's nice to have that. Like, that's my current level of empathy that I can really express to parents and just people like, you know, our age that are just kind of live living in, just living in life and trying to get through their, their day to day. Cause everybody's got their stressors. So that's, that's the people that I, I generally I'd like to work with everyone. That's my that's my main

TJ 3:46

group. It's it's funny because those are the people that you can relate to as well, right. Like directly. And they know you can, because you're, you're living it. It's not like it is 20 year old, 10 people. Yeah. It doesn't matter about your kids. You, you, you just don't care enough. You're like, no, you don't relate. So yeah, that works out pretty well. So yeah, as I spoke to you already and told you that w last, last time we spoke a lot about mental toughness why it's so weirdly popular in rugby and in sport in general, and why that might make peop people fall short and their results, but to get sort of an opening, what are your overall thoughts? If someone asks you, you know, that I want to be more mentally tough. How do I go about doing that? And they gave you no context. How would you react

Dr Jake Reed 4:33

if they. Ask me that I would ask them why first? So what, what evidence do they have to suggest that they need to be more mentally tough? And then from there that might lead to a well I'm, you know I'm getting gassed at, you know, in the last five, 10 minutes of a match or I, I can't, can't seem to really, you know, I can't go into a tackle with like the, the intensity that I'm looking to looking for, or, you know throwing on a line out and it's getting, it's just, it's too nerve wracking or kicking, you know, those high pressure situations. And so then that's going to direct us to where we actually, the root of the problem. If it's a fitness issue, if it's a skill issue, if it's a tactical consideration anything along those lines can give us something that is actually we know can be modifiable. And then from there. It turns into. Okay, so you have this thing that you believe you're lacking in. So now let's give you the skills to be able to, to, to cope with it. If it's a fitness thing, I'm just not tired enough. Okay. Well, the reality is that's not mental toughness. That's just, that's just fitness. And so let's, let's enhance your fitness. Where are you lacking? What kind of standardized rugby tests can we do to see? Is it an aerobic fitness? Is it, is it anaerobic? Is it the combination of repeated sprint ability and that kind of stuff? So that'll direct us to where we want to be. But when working with somebody who, from a mental toughness standpoint, it's helping them to understand that there is more than just mental toughness that results in whatever they think they're lacking in. It's not just this idea that I need to go and just beat myself apart, physically in order to do well in order to enhance this it's. These are their coping mechanisms that you can introduce. There are, there's a deeper understanding of the psychology of the individual that becomes really important. That was going to have the actual impact rather than. Hard fiscal and training through and through, and we need hard physical training. I'm not saying no to that, but it's just, let's be deliberate about how we incorporate that kind of thing. Okay.

TJ 6:46

And then from there, like that leads me to sort of two, two main areas of, or trains of thought. The first one is sort of, if we're talking about being tough, like it's almost, which comes first, right? Cause you, we always see someone who's performing really well. We think, oh, they're really tough, but we're only saying that because they're performing really well. Maybe that's because they've already got the skills or the fitness or the, whatever it is in place to complete whatever given tasks that is. There's no real indication of that person. That's tougher. There's just the indication that that person is, is better. Right. And I think weirdly enough, that might even make that person less tough because they're less used to adversity if they're used to more. Is that something that you've found as well as actually ends up being more of the opposite, that someone is less skilled, but then subsequently less successful? It's actually like if we're looking at it, quantitatively is less tough.

Dr Jake Reed 7:44

That could absolutely be the case. You know, the, I think the best scenario is if anybody's ever seen the movie Waterboy and they're setting up to do the the onside kick at the end of the game and the kickers just scanning the crowd or the front line, he's like where where's, where's my guy. It's not what he says, but that's what he's looking at. And he looks for the person that is just literally, their eyes are telling them, don't kick it to me. Don't kick it to me. Don't kick it to me. I'm going to, I'm going to botch this thing. And that comes with. You know, you have that individual right there that it's just, you know, they're not expressing mental toughness, but then you could also have the other side of it where it's this individual that, you know, has had a lot of experience and they've done many different things. You know, they probably do have what we would call more mental toughness because they have a confidence in their skills. You know, they've actually have, you know an arrogance about it almost to the point that they're, they believe they're better than what they are. And what's interesting is the literature will suggest that that person might actually like go above and beyond their true capacity, as long as they believe in their abilities, regardless of if they have it or not. And so it really does come into this. We have to have people that have experienced a lot of different things, you know when I was working with, with volleyball before they, one of the things that I loved having and love seeing was struggle in the preseason and American volleyball. It's this entire, the first, I don't know, month or so, ish, three, three weeks to a month is all preseason. You're going and playing multiple games a day against really high caliber talent. You haven't figured out your rotation yet. You're your top six. And you want struggle there because you want people to be in uncomfortable scenarios. You want to teach them, this is what you need to do in order to be like, when this happens, this is how you need to adapt to it. And then as the team, and the goes through that group, struggle, there turns into a, a, a collective understanding of what needs to be done, who is capable of doing what you can see when your teammates struggle and you can then get into actually being that. T really teammate where we want people to support each other and understand what is, you know, what each other needs. And you might have that person that's, you know, never experienced any hardship. And then as soon as they do, if they crumble, eh, that's a complete and total lack of mental toughness.

TJ 10:24

And is that something that can be trained like through more exposures to that struggle?

Dr Jake Reed 10:31

Oh, absolutely. I think that's the beauty of things like small sided games, especially in training for rugby and all sports that it makes sense to incorporate them is that you can design the game to be not only enhancing fitness, but to get that. You know, to get them tired. If you know, these people have never like this particular athlete, they've never struggled. And as a coach, you understand, and what they also haven't experienced, you can then put them in that scenario. And whether, if it's a big game scenario, those are, those are a little tougher to, to mimic, but you can design things that are very, very game-like in terms of the speed, the fitness requirements, the fatigue they're experiencing the tactics, the techniques. And then if you, if you do that and you get them to experience it outside of competition, now you've at least it's not new, a new thing for them as they get onto the field. And all of those pieces are really important. You have to have game like speeds. You have to have game like fatigue and tactics and techniques because otherwise as soon as they step on the pitch, It doesn't matter. Now everything's moving much faster than what I'm used to, or I'm really used to this very specific constraints scenario. And I don't know how to adapt beyond it. It's kind of like long-term athlete development. You don't want the one the one sport athlete you want the kid that's gone up and they're playing, jumping out of trees that have done all of these kinds of things. They've dabbled in, in wrestling and basketball and baseball and soccer and rugby and all of these pieces gymnastics. So that they've developed the, the motor pathways, the confidence, the struggle in EV in doing everything. Cause they're not going to be that great. And that puts them in a better place to succeed later on as well,

TJ 12:17

a hundred percent. I don't want to sort of make it argue against a straw man, but there seems to be a case here for making sure. With all these different sports for kids, like there is a win and a loss. I think it's strange to the point that there's a lot of no keeping scores and no let in anyone feel bad. And I'm like, why are we getting so upset that our five-year-old is like a sad, like who get like, they're going to be fine as adults. Like, no matter, even if they're, if, if anything, they're going to be worse. If they're not, if they're sheltered from any sadness as a kid, because that's not going to prepare them for the real world. Right.

Dr Jake Reed 12:55

Exactly. Like with our kids, we try to give them as many as broad of a a life experience as we can.

TJ 13:03

Okay. I thought you were going to say you ain't give them no chance in every sport. You just smashed them every time.

Dr Jake Reed 13:10

Well, that's, you know, the funny thing is that you look at that and it's, I want them to have broad experiences, but I also don't want them to be put in a scenario with somebody that is utterly in. And I mean, we had that even last, last summer, we signed up our kid up for T-ball. The coach comes out, it's this 14 year old girl that is, they have a volleyball and now they're going to start playing kickball. And then once she realized what she was actually doing, she decided to, oh, okay, we'll just have 15 5, 4 year olds stand in a line and throw a ball at a tee and then go chase it and go stand back in line. So it's, I understand the struggle of that, but it's also, I, you know, there's, there's a point at which, you know, they're kids, they, it does need to be fun and they should be struggling doing the things that are meaningful to the sport. It shouldn't just be, it shouldn't be boring. And so it's for me anyway, it's a, it's a difficult piece to struggle with, to know, and at least put them in a, with a coach that is some degree of competence that can. You know, isn't going to burn them into the ground and just do things that honestly don't make sense from a, from any standpoint,

TJ 14:31

this is a tangent I want to entertain. Cause I remember when I was I was working with a sports performance facility when I was in the U S I was in Colorado and every Sunday I trained a couple people in the morning. And then for my second session, that'd be these two kids. And they were, I don't know, but their baseball bags that they were carrying were as big as them. And they came in and they did an hour and a half of it. Must've just been pitching. It couldn't have been hitting. Right. So they were just doing an hour and a half of just pitching with this coach, just these two kids. And they were tiny. And I was like, they're doing this to prepare them for something that is in these, maybe they're six, right? So they're preparing themselves for college when they're 18, that's, that's double the life, their entire life that they've already experienced a way. And they're doing just repetition after repetition. I'm like this. And also the parents, like how much they're spending on this coach. I might put that towards a college fund. Like that's, that's how you get your kid a scholarship is, you pay for it with that money. It drives me nuts.

Dr Jake Reed 15:29

Same, I actually devote in one of my classes, time to talking about early specialization and the, all of the literature that we have out there that supports exactly what you're talking about. It's like, yeah,

TJ 15:42

yeah. Get them doing lots of different things, solving lots of problems. It's not like they're, you know, the age, you know, the, the development that occurs between the age of anything before 12, like or anything before, like anywhere close the end of Pubi doesn't really make a difference until, you know, it doesn't compare to what they go to the owner of the exposures they go to in that mid to late teens. Right. And that's, that's when you really want to start to specialize. And have them just depends on the sport.

Dr Jake Reed 16:16

Like didn't ask sticks where they're competing in the, in the Olympics at, you know, 12, 13 years old. But yeah, otherwise, you know, that 1213 is generally when people say to start specialized, but that's also just dependent on what makes sense for the kid.

TJ 16:31

And so to go back to the mental toughness side of things, and I think sort of piggybacking off of the encouraging kids to fail all the time and you, especially making sure that your kids always lose in every sport that they do. We make sure that like, this is developed them to be tougher athletes. Is there a way that we can sort of measure or ensure that, you know, we're not just losing for the sake of losing that we're actually building out tuffets cause sometimes, you know, as well as I do, there are coaches that we'll do at UCLA in American sports. Coach Carter Springs to mind when he makes them run thousands of suicides, like, is that building any toughness or is that just burning someone into the ground at that point? When things are like that hard,

Dr Jake Reed 17:17

that's just burning people into the ground. I mean, they literally killed people doing that. You know, there is that the offensive lineman from Maryland, they, they killed the guy because they're asking him to do one tense. And so,

TJ 17:30

yeah, one 10th and gasses and a three hundreds old staples and my buddy Kier the rubbish strength coaches recently been hitting out of that a lot. And it's so it's funny. Cause you, you think that these things are limited to your one sport, a niche niche that you're in a bit of an American accent creeping in that in the niche that you're in. But it's not like there are stupid stuff in every. It's, it's a lot of it is about being like, trying to be as tough as you can, even in new sports, like rap though, the clown in CrossFit, like that's, that's not tough.

Dr Jake Reed 18:02

No, exactly. It's, you know, I actually talk a lot about, and I, and I follow up here you know, have similar beliefs and mindsets that he does. And it's the one thing I teach to my kids in my classes is, you know, we can, we can make people fit other ways than doing one test gassers at the end of practice. Like your practice is going to be terrible leading up to it cause they know they're going to do it. It's not going to be fun. There's going to be low quality work. There's going to be, you know, it's just not a good scenario. Cause they're just going to be saving themselves to get into it regardless of what you want to believe. No, they should be going hard. Okay. Sure. It's not happening. And so for those kids to make sure that. We want them to be able to, you know, understand training heart, what training heart actually is, what makes sense for their sport, understand the actual game, you know, be a student of it. Know how far do you have to travel? I was asking offensive linemen, not all usually have one or two. And one of my classes, they'll say, how far do you think you travel in a game? I don't know. 500 yards, no, try three to 5,000 yards of just traveling. This is walking, jogging sprinting. When you want to tell me that, you know, your fitness characteristics don't need any like a aerobic metabolism. Now I'm not saying don't go and run. What I'm saying is like, let's find ways to make you train as offensive linemen to actually enhance that system. Like if you're doing conditioning, why are you doing it? If it's for it, for you to express your frustrations with practice, that's your problem. That's not. If it's to enhance fitness, okay. Do it differently. Maybe structure a different time, maybe actually plan, practice so that it is legitimately hard from a game standpoint. That's why most of the games, I think they make sense from every possible angle from every sport that it makes sense to put it in. And so it's, you know, we just want to make sure that with, from a mental toughness standpoint, we're letting them struggle. And from whatever aspect it may be, and then we're giving them the skills to cope with it. And those skills aren't literally like, oh, just suck it up, Nancy. It's okay. What, what are you feeling right now? So is it how, like it's having that conversation with, with the athlete and seeing where they're struggling, what part of this are you struggling? Have you done any visualization? What are, what are you doing to try to adapt to it? Other than just go harder that doesn't get you there. There's, there's actually specific standpoint. There is like tactics that you can incorporate a hundred

TJ 20:49

percent. I think what you said there, everything that you've said has been about solving the problem of the sport that you're trying to do, right? Like a lot of people see toughness as, you know, we're doing these runs or we're doing, you know, or they'll do it on a some old school way. Different coaches will put them in the weight room and they would make them develop toughness in the weight room. But what you're saying is the struggle with. The problem solving occurs in the sport. It's not just a, is that right? So if I'm want to be a better rugby player, is there any benefit to me struggling and losing consistently at say chess or on a row in workout or anything like that? Do any of these things actually have a transfer to the toughness that we have to utilize to win a sport?

Dr Jake Reed 21:39

You know, I'd argument could probably be made if you have every, you know, 24 hours a day to devote to your sport, then yeah. I bet that somehow that would transfer over, but the reality is nobody has that much time. You know, we're talking about people that are, you know, they're working jobs they're maybe able to get in, you know, if they have a two hour practice and then in a one hour training session in a day, that's a big day. And so that's what. Okay. We have to be aware of how we're using our time and what I like to do when I'm talking about this whole developing fitness and fitness, mental toughness, being a component of fitness is that look what we do in the weight room, from the standardized procedures of like a bench squat, deadlift cleans that kind of thing. Those develop the system, they create the ceiling as high as we can physically get it. And then what we want to do is take that and actually start doing sports specific, but controlled things. That's why you start to see sandbags. That's what you start to see wrestling and rugby, like moving kegs around that kind of stuff, because it's, I've become strong. Now I moving awkward things because that's a lot of what rugby is. So I'm teaching myself in a controlled environment to actually do that. It is in the controlled environment is key. Is if you want to teach, like have, have skills learned, there has to be repetitive countries. Like application of what's going on. And then once they've done that, that's where practice comes into play in competition and becomes more of a real world, real game scenario. And I think a lot of people, either they fall into we're going to lift weights and then practice, or they fall into a screw lifting weights. That's old school, we're going to be in the middle and just do things that are, that look super sport specific. And then we're going to go practice where it's the stepwise, or at least not necessarily people believe that, but that's how it works. So tribal way of which media and social media is being presented, you know, you're one or the other rather than well, there's, there's a sequential way to incorporate everything and what is best for the time that we have right now at the time of the year. Is really what we need to focus on. And we build into it, incorporate mental skills training along the way. And it works like even from a weightlifting standpoint, you want to teach somebody really high quality mental skills, the weight room, normal weight training session, pretty high intensity silence, no talking nothing. Right? You can't even talk to tell your teammates what weight to put on the bar. You have to find, find a way to communicate, find a way to get it in yourself. You can't talk in between sets. There's no music, you sit and you think you're visualizing, you're practicing those pieces in the weight room, which helped to transfer into other things. Because now you're, you've got that skill. At least you started to understand how it works for you. And so they can be, but it's just, how can we be creative about doing it without. Taking too much time and being add on coaches as well, a

TJ 25:00

hundred percent. That's so good. I think I want to talk about the fact that you mentioned that the strength work being increasing that ceiling and the fact that too much of the stuff is done in the middle and this middle is where rugby is played, which is why we want that exposure to you know, to, to challenge us and getting that toughness within that area. But that should be saved for that middle stuff. I think you know, you're not getting tougher by pushing your moderate max for, or doing like a widow maker at for example, you know, 20 rep squat, stuff like that. Doesn't make you mentally tougher for makes you hurt. But the other thing that I think is crucial that people want to hear. you increase that ceiling. You know, I also like to include speed work and some sort of energy system, 80 PPC system development at the top. So they can really push those higher highs when they needed to, but that's just to help you develop for rugby. The other thing I like to, I never shut the fuck up about this because it's so, so important. People don't think about it is that is, is developing also your, your floor. So, you know, get real deep with your aerobic system because then that allows you much more room in this middle. Right. Cause that, but that's where it's, you don't train in the middle because it's, it's kind of gross. It's like, it's, it's really tough, but you don't develop yourself enough to recover or you don't develop yourself enough to, to get a good benefit. But it's just tough too much. Like it's much tougher than aerobic work. So it does basic bodybuilding work. So it fatigues you quite significantly, which, you know, th that, you know, for your detriment for the rest of the week and therefore. Yeah. You shouldn't target that to develop your fitness, but that's where you play the game. So do your rugby training. They're like, so you don't have to do more stuff, but I think people look at rugby or they look at any sport, really, you know, a lot of field sports have played the same, you know, they're in this middle area and they think, well, I need to do that to match that, but that, yeah, that doesn't develop you. Long-term and I think people are missing that sort of, I dunno, a wider vision of, of how both to develop fitness and to develop like being a better player.

Dr Jake Reed 27:09

Oh, absolutely. You know, the best example as well is not best, but a good one is if you want to get faster, you have to run at 90% or more of your max velocity. That's the typical trip early Frances model, right? Like in anything between 75% and 90% is. For speed development. Yes. It will enhance, you know, your anaerobic capacity, but it is highly fatiguing. It's tough to recover from, and you're not getting faster because you're not running, running at a speed. That's going to provide that sense of overload. And so it's, you know, it's that place where, you know, it fits for speed. It's like everything that you talked about. Absolutely.

TJ 27:50

Yeah. And Matt Metcons always fall in that middle P a lot of rugby players love to do Metcons because I had a guy messaged me before a while, back on Instagram, when I posted about how I really don't like him. And he really was, he understood, but he was upset because he was like, look, I know you hate them, but I still like doing them because, you know, they feel tough. And I feel like I've, I've, I've pushed myself through. And I was like, yeah, but you're you're are you doing that? You're doing a Metcon for your mental benefits, in which case. Isn't that why you're playing rugby? Why don't you just save it for the rugby? Why don't you just be better, you know, develop your aerobic system or develop whatever it is you physically want to develop and not wreck yourself doing Metcons and there's no real physical answer for it, except people enjoy.

Dr Jake Reed 28:36

No, exactly. It Metcons are so interesting. I had a, my cousin wants to talk to me about it. You said imagine how much power is developed when you're in 1 35 cleans for at one thirty, a hundred thirty five pounds for, you know, for reps. And I was like, I don't know, how much did you develop in that one rep like that's, you know what, power isn't a summit, some game, it's an instant measurement. And so it's, you know, there's, there's so much that, you know, the Metcons are, if, if CrossFits your sport, The Metcons

TJ 29:08

are, wonder if it's the same thing, right? You don't play rugby to be a better CrossFit athlete. It's the exact same thing. But then again, we're talking about this middle area that is your measuring stick, but it's not what you do to develop.

Dr Jake Reed 29:22

Yep. And you can do a Metcon, like literally it's just metabolic conditioning. And so why not? Why does it have to be a bar? Right? Why, why can't you actually put in a wrestling component and then a, you know, mimic the game. You've got, you hit the ruck, you've got a wrestle into the ruck. You make the tackle, the rock has to happen. And then now you got a jog to get in or run to get into position. And then you got to do something similar. They're like mimic the game, like the fitness components of the game by having multiple small side of games that people have to run into that's metabolic conditioning. You're just not moving away. You're playing the game a hundred

TJ 30:01

percent. Yeah, I think this way. Alex V Ardagh had a big influence on me. Cause he even programs from complete human performance. He even programs for CrossFit athletes that do regionals and they're very successful and they don't, they barely do any Metcons because that's how they develop. And I was like, oh shit. Like if even the best CrossFitters aren't doing that, like what are people doing that doesn't make sense?

Dr Jake Reed 30:25

I mean, look at rich Froning that's not how he trained. They train multiple times a day, the multi, the, the different qualities that are necessary. They might have strength work in the morning and then aerobic work at night. And then it's, you know, in that, in that world, it turns into, you know, the Metcon is your practice. You're not doing the Metcon for fitness. You're doing the Metcon to practice. Do practice your, your tech, how you work in that kind of scenario. Can you transition well? What is your technique looking like when you get fatigued? But practice is different than physical preparation. And I think people get lost in that piece. Whereas if you need to practice, practice, if you need to physically condition condition, don't try to like bring everything

TJ 31:15

into one. Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. It's funny. And it's, I keep saying this cause like, you know, why I run here is rugby muscle. It's, it's all about it. And I still, you know, we, we separate these things massively because there's just how you become better. Yeah. I probably sell a lot more programs and do a lot more business. If I, if I, if I did some funky exercises and I'd get up, I'd definitely get a lot more traction on like reels and stuff on Instagram. Cause I look cooler, but I'm not doing it cause it doesn't like, it's not what develops you as a player. It doesn't make you, it doesn't actually help, but looks cool. I want to sort of actually, before I switch gears, the other thing that you mentioned was about the mental toughness side of things is switching music off. I've done that with endurance work a lot. Like I'll say, you know, you go out and you don't listen to music, but you've got, you know, a 30, 40 minute like low and slow. So it's nothing, that's, there's no reason physically that I should have, they should ever even really rely on music. Again, this is from Alex Varda, it's just a way to then not just focus on the fo or focus on different parts of your performance. So as opposed to just focus on the pain of your legs or whatever, or being bored and letting your brain just go wild, you focus on just your form and making sure that you're running right. Or if you're on the elliptical, we're focused on other things, but or, or even we've done it before. Well, we've actually completely zoned out and we've actually used it to try and concentrate and read a book. Cause that actually makes for a different stimulus is like trying to really distract the brain away while still performing. Is there anything to be said for where this crosses the line, I guess, is from being sort of mental toughness to actual just sort of mental training compartmentalizing. I know you've worked with quite a few endurance athletes and this is something I believe they do better than others. Is there something that we as rugby athletes can learn from them?

Dr Jake Reed 33:08

I think it can be I think the biggest point that you mentioned is that, you know, it's when you're out there running or doing any sort of like just traditional, like aerobic type work, you know, what is the purpose to just go out and do it, or is the purpose to get better at that specific specific. Larry cause Mo multiple people, everybody has a different objective when it comes to running. Some people might just go out because they just need to get away from the world and in silence, and it's not necessarily a mental skills piece. Some people, it might be like, ah, this is the only time that I get to listen to my own music. You know, like when we drive, when I drive the kids to school where I'm, I'm playing the sing soundtrack, which it's good music, but it's not exactly my cup of tea. And so if I go out and do a run well then, right. And so I think it's, you know, it can be, but I think the biggest part is, is can you still train well with appropriate intensity without the music? And if you can use it as needed, but if you need the music to be able to go out and do. What you need to do, you really need to step back and think about how you're approaching things. Cause it's, it's not the music's not there when you compete, it's you, if you really hate it that much, like there is something to be said about embracing the suck, you know, if you hate going out for a run, but it makes sense for your sport got to do it. You don't have to like it, but you got to pick yourself up and get out there and take care of that, that responsibility that you have. I mean, it's no different, like some people might not like going to sleep early or going to sleep, you know, at a reasonable time or waking up early. But if that's a necessity, you have to do it. You know, we, I used to do well when I was a weight room supervisor, we would play only seventies disco because it's, it's upbeat enough. Nobody can argue about. And it's just, it's just background noise. And what I did was is that's what we always had, but I kept in my back pocket and this was when I was working with volleyball. Whereas one day I was like, all right, guess what? Y'all get to choose the music today because I saw that they came in and they were just, just done. It was the GRA it made sense for the time of year. They just needed a pick me up to come in and just have a good session. But also just from that mental, like relief standpoint. And I remember this girl's face, she said anything. I was like, yup.

TJ 35:57

Beyonce.

Dr Jake Reed 35:58

Yup. No, absolutely. I flipped on Beyonce and it was a beautiful. And so again, that is something that can be used strategically for yourself. Like I have a playlist that I play during peak week because it just hits different. And if it's not peak week, I change it up because I want to have that same stimulus. Cause you, you do want to train hard, don't get me wrong. But you also want to like have that you don't want to become desensitized to it kind of like coffee, right? You keep drinking coffee. Eventually you need six cups a day just to get the stimulus. Whereas it's probably a good idea to pull off and go down to one or so, and then bring it back up

TJ 36:41

a hundred percent. It's I think I stole this from James Hoffman who was, who said paradise everything. Cause it, it, it makes so much sense and this actually goes perfectly into what I wanted to talk into next. But I think using that sort of stuff is exactly what it's there for. Right? Yeah. It allows you then to use that music when you do need that intensity or use whatever mental cues or, or yeah. Pre-workouts and massive on as well. Right. Use it when you need to, but if it becomes a crutch, then it's absolute absolutely a problem. And really like, because you can, it's also making time for a problem, you know, for yourself mentally or, or actually it's a problem with your training, right? Because if you need that much of a reduced to get going, like, are you actually overly fatigued? Like it? Or if you can't, if you can't meet your running or whatever it is, you know, especially if you're just doing lists, right? Like low intensity work, like there should be, there shouldn't be a need for music to get you through that. Or, or, you know, your general weight room work outside of a peak week. Like there shouldn't be a need to really need outside stimulus to get you going. You should be able to, you should, you should have done everything in the previous week to get you going. A hundred percent. I also think there's something to be said about the, the mental benefit of pushing through that. When it's tough, you're not necessarily pushing through like real physical barriers. It's just a mental barrier that exists for some reason, even though, you know, physically you can do it. I think that's even like, I feel that every time I go, I do like a weekly long run at the minute. It's not that hard, you know, I finished and I can still hold a conversation the entire time. But every Sunday morning or, or whichever morning I go, I faff around for an hour. It takes me like an hour to make a coffee. And then I'm just mincing about, because I know I don't want to go out and run and not have my phone on me, but my brain is just doing anything to avoid it. But afterwards I always feel better going to bed earlier as well. The same thing, right? You, your brain just doesn't want to go to bed early because there's so many, so much Netflix to watch or whatever. But afterwards, when you wake up in the morning, you feel so much better. You got through it. You'd like you did what you were supposed to do. And now you read the reward. And I think there's something to be said for whether that developed mental toughness or just mental discipline, maybe because all it is is it's not necessarily doing something overly difficult. It's just doing what you are supposed to do.

Dr Jake Reed 39:02

I think it's dead on honestly.

TJ 39:04

Absolutely. Yeah. And that's where it's like, it's not. And then even then you don't see it as discipline. It's just, you said you were going to do it. You did it great. Like you don't think it's tough or difficult that no one thinks they're tough of brushing their teeth twice a day, but hopefully everyone does it. Right. Unless you plan on paradise in your teeth brushing, you know, you let her, let her develop for one time. For some weeks, you do it just once a day. And then by the end, before you go to the dentists, you, you know, the, the two weeks before you, you brush them five times. Yeah, please don't do that, but you should paradise everything else. You you've been on a recent trend of just chasing hypertrophy gangs. What, what caused this sort of ventured down you, you stepping up? I don't think you have any ambitions of stepping on stage or am I wrong? Oh,

Dr Jake Reed 39:53

I want to, ah, nice.

TJ 39:56

I never saw that coming.

Dr Jake Reed 39:58

Yeah. I didn't either. What ended up happening was it was so oldest kid is almost five. And then from, so he was born in 2017 from the time that he was born to the time till fall of 2020. Like I honestly got into a funk with training specifically with resistance training, something that I've historically loved. And I. I barely did. Maybe once a week, there might've been six weeks since that I didn't do anything at all. And then in, during that time I ran two 50 Ks. I ran my my first marathon that I ever ran was just fully self-supported by myself, running on back roads. There's I ran a marathon in the snow, so I did some really cool stuff. That's fun to say, but for all of that, it was like the first 50 K it was July 10th, 2018. I said, I, I was in San Francisco for a wedding, my wife, her sister, and her brother all went out and did this beautiful marathon and 30 K in in the, the parks around San Francisco, around golden gate. And I was the driver and I drove there and I just sat there for seven hours. So, this is not, I want to be out there. And at that time I really hadn't done anything. And so on July 10th, I said, okay, I'm going to do a 50 K on October in October. So I drained for 50 K. And I, and I did it. It was the worst pain I've ever felt finishing that thing, but I finished it. And, but that was a three month stint. The next 50 K did was similar. It was like three months did. And then in fall of 2020, I started to actually train like legitimately train again. And I got, I got the passion back the drive and I started lifting weights. And I said, everything that I've ever done has been at most about two years, that I've committed to anything. And otherwise it's just been a lot of dabbling, which has given me a really broad approach to things. But it's from a very short timeframe. I wanted the longterm, like, can I commit to something for six years? And realize the gains and, and make the parts of myself better that I knew I needed to make better. So I was 34 at the time, and I said, I want to do a body building show when I'm 40. And so I'm a year in now and I've learned so much about myself and everything. And it's, it's been a, it's been a life-changing experience actually

TJ 42:41

interested in what ways?

Dr Jake Reed 42:44

So it's, it all started. So it was February 1st ish of 2021 that I started it. And I, I started with a cut because I wanted to get as lean as I could. And I, I got lean, but not, I, I had the desire to also to just spend money right now. Which wasn't is it normal for me or historically wasn't I also had I was procrastinating sleep during this cut, so I'd like lay down to bed and then I'd be on the phone. Right. And then you procrastinate when you intentionally tried to go to sleep. And so I incorporated some changes, so I said, okay, I will do a meditation before bed. I will start to maybe incorporate, you know, sugar-free substitutes to see if that helps. Well, that didn't help at all. The meditation worked a little bit, but wasn't something that was sustainable. So I made it through the cut, did a reverse diet, got into my mass and the mass went pretty well. But then I would have these periods where the impulsivity just went, boom, just hammered me. And I would just go excessive with eating and it was. Eating disordered behavior. I later found out it was something else. And then it came into the fall of last year where I actually had a relatively easy semester. I had no new course preparations. I had a higher load client load than I normally take, but nothing crazy. And I was struggling even being able to work and just to function. And it was permeating everything that I was doing. And this was in a mass phase. Like it wasn't like I was in a caloric deficit at all. And what I ended up doing was tick-tock of all things. I saw some ADHD, tick tock pop up, and I see. Th they had some, you know, real I could relate to a lot of what was being said from both psychiatrists and, you know, people doing skits that have ADHD. And so I scheduled the appointment to get myself checked out and I should also preface it by back in may I started an, any anxiety medication. So it was, it was just overwhelming me and it kind of worked, it didn't work once the fall hit. It prompted that. Let's go get checked, check for ADHD. Cause as a friend of mine would say name it to tame it. If I have ADHD. Great. If I don't awesome, then that's not it. I can move on to the next thing, which is kind of how I approach this entire year. Well, it turns out that I do have ADHD and I've had it for my entire life. It's just that it didn't be, I was able to mask it well, it's not extreme, but I was able to mask it well, and it never had a significant and consistently negative impact on my life until last year when I actively tried to address these things, like my impulsivity, which is the Naty HD trait the inability to like really focus in and listen to people like my wife. She can be talking to me. I can be looking at her, all of the other background noise, just jumbles me, you know, having. The need to have high anxiety arousal to be able to get things done. So like procrastination, like I finished my dissertation in a month when I did it. I had data collection at the end of April, and this was in 2014, but data collection at the end of April, I defended in June of that year. And so it was everything kind of clicked. And even, you know, in college I tried Adderall once just because I needed to study and a friend of mine had it and they're like here, try it out. And it was mind blowing to me. And as I was talking to my counselor and like medical professionals, they had said that like, you know, it's, if it works, there's obviously something there. And so I started I started taking Adderall in December and it's been life-changing actually. And so that's the, that's kind of the big, the most fun thing about this process was that I ran some statistics last year. Or yet not last week, it was like Saturday. And I saw that about 70% of my phases. I was, you know, consistent with last year. So like if I was in a mass phase, 70% of those weeks, I was in a a body, a positive body, weight change percentage wise. If I was in a cut, I was in a negative, you know, body, weight change percentage wise. So 70% of the weeks of last year, I was doing what I needed to do. And that was through all of the struggles. So now it's like, I have this objective of like, alright, now I'm going for more than 70, I'm going to drive for 80, 85% or even more. So that way I gained a gain more muscle. I have, you know, all, all of the positives that are coming with, with sleep with, with family life, with work, you know, everything is kind of it's, it's been a year to kind of address things that I know, like, this is my realm. I know exactly what to do. Couldn't do it a hundred percent. It took a lot of. To, to get there, but it's yeah, it's now it's going to be a real interesting five years because I enjoy lifting again. I can get it done in the amount of time that I have available, you know, 45 minutes to an hour, four days a week. And it's, it's fun and obviously there's all the quality of life stuff as well.

TJ 48:04

Yeah. And that's going to be really interesting goal as far as like, you've got a lot of time between now and then to get a, for lack of a better term to get distracted as far as other goals, you know? Oh yeah. Sukkot five years. Could I see, let's see if I can do a power lifting meet in the meantime or whatever it is. Cause I think when you said, you know, you sort of dabbled in lots of different areas. That's, that's how I've approached a lot of my, particularly my weight room stuff, as far as I want, I've wanted to see the weight room through a lot of different lenses. And I don't know if yeah. Actually one of my goals for this year is to, as. Sort of outsource all of my training and just not think about it and maybe here and there, I'll say, oh, can we sort of tweak this and do this? But other than that, I'm just going to try and just train as an athlete because I know myself I'll constantly sort of change the goal and to my own detriment, but also to my own mental, somewhat benefit, because I always like to keep changing and pursuing other things, but I know long-term that doesn't really help. And that's why we need to plan these things.

Dr Jake Reed 49:11

And I have a go-to as well, like I'm, I'm fully capable of doing it. And I actually worked with my coaches, Steve at revive stronger. No. Yeah. And then was, you know, he's there training philosophy and ideology is a real similar to what I'm used to and what RP is, and is kind of nice to get a slightly different, but similar perspectives that I can trust. And it's been, it's been amazing. Like even today I had, you know, it's snow and ice here, like I'm home, which is not normal with the three kids. And I had a funeral yesterday. So I'm two days into this week. My training week is kind of screwed and this is the first time it's happened since I started, you know, over a year. And I just said like, look, I'm just going to do a de-load and keep it at 90%, 50% of the volume. I have to train at home because I have kids that are trying to, you know, pop in to things right now. And but it it's, it was good to just shoot him that he must say, this is what I'm thinking. This is where, you know, this is a scenario you're going to get back to normal. Okay, we'll go fix it. That's that's Thomas.

TJ 50:15

He approves, if you de-load

Dr Jake Reed 50:19

buddy, go play, please. No, thank you. But it's been, it's been nice because I could throw that idea out there. I can get back to normal training next week. I'm in a cut right now. So it was, and I, I hit the cut too hard to start with. And I know that now because I was coming fresh off of the mass and that was my fault. And so it kind of worked and I'll still get a good intensity out of it, but just the volume will drop just because my availability is, is changed to this week

TJ 50:48

before the, the real big benefit of that. Both the long-term sort of mindset, but also that having a coach as well is that you're able to do things like take that week off and it sort of a. Excuse me. So it brings us full circle in that you, you know, a lot of people will think, oh, I've got to be tough. This is going to be a real difficult week. I'm going to push for it. I'm going to be better for it. But like, if you're stressed out, you're fucking not like doing more stuff on top of that is not going to help. Particularly if it is those sorts of stressful situation, a shuttle train and intensities that really induced fatigue and like just run you into the ground. And I think this is a mistake. And you said right at the top that, you know, these people live real lives. Most of them, we might have a very small handful of professionals listening to this, or send me a fresh resistance. Otherwise you're working your end, even then you've still got lots of other stress on your day-to-day life. Like isn't this isn't. And to have the freedom to step back and realize that in the long-term you're going to be okay. Not feel that guilt for skipping stuff and not feel that feel like that feeling that you've let yourself down, that you, you need to be tougher. Like it's, it's massive.

Dr Jake Reed 52:11

It is. And it, it helps having the long-term perspective, like knowing that, okay, it's six years, I'm looking at trying to put on, you know, two to three pounds a year being realistic. And what's going to allow me to do that is setting myself up for consistency. I ask students this, I have clients. It's like, what's the most important thing. What can you do to put yourself in a situation to be consistent? Because if you can't be consistent, like 80, 90% consistent, 70%, even over the course of the entire face, It's not going to happen. You have to, that means understanding where the difficulties lie and then adjusting to it. If somebody is going to have to go to a wedding on a weekend, that's cool. Enjoy it. We can make some plans around it, but you get done with the wedding the next day. Guess what? You're just back to your normal routine, right? Like, yeah, you'll be delayed by probably a week in your progress, but it's all good. There's no problem. You enjoyed life. Like if you're a professional, it's a different story, right? Like you, you have to factor in that piece. If you legitimately have, or are a professional or you could actually make it to that point, but professionals are what, 1% of the population, no throwing in not many and sport. And so let's, let's be honest with ourselves. Okay. Enjoying life and still achieving our goals at the same

TJ 53:46

time. Yeah. A hundred percent. And I think that's where a lot of the, those types of workouts come from the, the, the, you gotta be tougher. And all of that is trying to flog unfit people because they weren't prepared because they weren't consistent in the first place. And now we're scared and we've got to make up for lost time. Like, it's, it's almost like a camp. Whereas what you're on now is like a feedback cycle that like is re reinforces itself allows you to stay stress free, allows you to keep progressing. You know, it feeds back into itself. A lot of people get stuck on that other never-ending loop of not staying consistent than pushing themselves too hard because they're making up for lost time, which they can't stay consistent with and let's do even more problems.

Dr Jake Reed 54:27

So, yeah, that, I see that a lot. With NCAA, like you look at a fall sport NCAA athlete in the United States, they get done somewhere around. Then there's no contact period with any coaches at all for anywhere from four to six weeks. And actually mid December is pretty late. You know, you can be talking eight weeks, even have no contact. Well, there's an expectation that athletes are going to train, but they don't. And the reason they don't is because they know as soon as they step foot on that campus in January, they're going to get destroyed because that's the typical, like you were gone, we're going to, we got a lot of work to do, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? Like why, why not instead get, try have them trust you get eight really solid weeks of training out of them on their own. That's just simple. It's something they come back knowing that they're not going to get annihilated, that they can actually work into the fitness that they need and that it's better for everybody. And now you've gained eight weeks of actual training out of, and if you're looking at NCAA athletes, you might be looking at 20, 24 weeks of actual training. Maybe maybe, and that's dispersed into usually six to eight weeks segments. And I th I think a lot of people in that world anyway, or at least that want to get into it, kind of forget that that's the case that you don't have time. And so really be mindful of how you're using it is this to the best of your, of what you have and the goals that you want to achieve

TJ 56:02

for sure. Awesome. Doc Jake, it was really good having you back on as I've said about your, your new hypertrophy and oh, now confirm bodybuilding journey. You, you, you seem to share some really cool insights on your Instagram. So do you want to plug that real quick so that people can follow along?

Dr Jake Reed 56:18

Okay. Yeah. It's, it's funny. I was doing that at the beginning. I think probably in March herself last year, really. Doing anything. Cause I liked chronicling the journey and it was at about that point that I realized that it takes a really long time to do that well, and it wasn't time that I had. Yeah. So I, I will be posting on Instagram, periodic updates about the process and describing this kind of stuff, because I think, you know, the mental health component is important. Demonstrating that it took me a year to actually get to that point is, is huge. And I've, I have a year's worth of data from, I wear an ordering and a whoop band cause athlete monitoring is my thing and it's fun. And I have all my sleep, all my HRV, all my resting heart rate, the meaningful stuff tracked over the course of a year and fascinating to see. It's just hard to. Like capture it in such a limited format, especially when I can, I can ramble forever. Okay.

TJ 57:22

So then when you get your, when you get your blogs started, we'll we'll plug that as well, then say it again. I say, when you get your, yeah, there you go. That'd be a nice place or, or just your own podcast.

Dr Jake Reed 57:32

Oh, a podcast on YouTube series. Thought about the beast, but yeah, it's it's RP. Dr. Reed is my my incident.

TJ 57:40

Awesome. Well yeah, if you get a few new followers and that's pressure on you to at least do something this month or something, you know, you go, all right, well, it's been great having you on I enjoy chatting.

Dr Jake Reed 57:52

Absolutely. As did I think he was always.

TJ 57:54

All right. Hey, there's TJ, once again. Thank you for listening to that episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'm just here. One more time. I know you thought you were rid of me, but, uh, I've got some pretty cool that I want to send your way. I've tried to condense all the most important things that you need to make progress. The training, the mindset, the nutrition, everything you hear in these podcasts and more presented in a. Two week program called Robbie muscle kickoff through kickoff you'll have access to two weeks of emails delivered directly to your inbox. So it's a video's education and interaction and access to tools, strategies, tactics previously reserved only. Paying clients to join. Simply click the link, the link in the description of this podcast, the one that says kickoff, or if you want to go old school and type it out, then crack on access@roby-muscle.com forward slash kickoff. All one word, she for listening to podcasts. So you guys next time. Yeah.