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This is what's going on, everyone. Welcome back to another brand new rugby muscle podcast. I'm your host as always TJ. And today I'm joined by Jamie bane of rugby Renegade. Actually more accurately. I'm joining him on the rugby Renegade podcast because he ended up taking the reins of this one. We are co-publishing of course, as you're listening to this on the rugby muscle podcast, but he's also publishing it on his Robbie Renegade pod. So this is your first time you've come across from the rugby Renegade podcast. I dunno why you didn't just listen to it there, but whatever, make sure you hit subscribe. Make sure you give us five stars on Spotify because it's really important. And if you're someone who always religiously listens to the ropy mussel podcasts, but you don't know what rapid Renegade. Uh, and I have never listened to their podcast. I would suggest going over there and listening to them and seeing what rubbery Renegade is all about because they, we share a very, very, very similar message. Okay. And in this podcast, we actually ended up discussing, you know, basically what I'm, where our messages align and, and big mistakes that we see pupil, uh, amateur players, mostly what they do in rubbish, strength and condition. I said, I'm not going to keep doing these. Preambles I've got a plane flying over my head just to make sure that I cut this one short. So enjoy this episode. This is the podcast with Robbie renegades, Jamie bain. TJ, welcome to work, running a podcast. Great to have you on, uh, we normally start by sort of getting your background, but just to kind of pre face this, this podcast, we're going to use it on both of our, on our podcasts over, there'll be a bit of back and forth, but start with you telling us a bit about your background, how you got into strength, conditioning, and work with. Yeah. So my story is almost like that. One of like repeated failure and that sort of led me to the eventual path that I've found my cell phone, which is, you know, I look back and you, you sort of upset about all the failures, but really. Have all of those, I wouldn't be where I am today. I'm quite happy with that. So originally was a state school rugby player, um, managed to, uh, captain my county team, uh, went to university in Bedfordshire, actually in, uh, in my, actually before I did that, I took one year off to sort of see if I could go pro or see if I could like push that sort of side of things and really take my rugby serious. Uh, and in preseason, I, uh, I tore my knee ligament. So started looking into the coaching side of things, sort of also fell in love with the gym at the same time, went to university carried on loving the gym the whole time. Um, and then from there, like as the rugby career, wasn't working out as I'd hoped, like I still was happy with where I played, but it wasn't exactly what I hoped I wanted to. I figured out that actually what I'm going to do instead is sort of use it to travel. So after university went from. Uh, Bedford to, or from hours playing the amp to at the time I went from there to, uh, Las Vegas of all places. Yeah. Fresh out of university, as well as ridiculous, uh, when they're played there. Um, for, I think it was five or so months realized that I don't want to come. I'm not ready to go back to England. So then ended up in the middle east, playing rugby as well. And I found myself with quite a bit of time where I was in-between because when I went to the middle east, I started personal training as well to go alongside it. And I really found myself with like so much time to sort of develop something of an online presence. And I, I didn't want to follow the road of just doing what everyone else does with fat. So actually that's a lie. I did. That's what originally I did, you know, I was, I was trying to, I in-person, I was coaching moms. I thought I could just open up some sort of membership site to have people follow me in. And I realized like that. I'm not really speaking to anyone. And the more I was like, just being myself, what I realized was, was I could really help rugby players because I had spent in this time from my year off, when I busted my knee all the way through to a present moment, which is like 2012 or something, uh, 2013, like just research in gym stuff. I was like, you know, on teenage fashion or this into, uh, you know, Jay Ferrugia. Yeah. I came across his book like early doors and that sort of changed the game for me. And I really realized, I was like, oh my God, like, this is like all men's fitness stuff is just nonsense, but that's all people follow this because that's all we know. Um, and so I figured that actually what's missing is some sort of bridge of the gap, right? Because you've got this level of real, like high quality strength and condition that's meant for professionals. And then you've got that advice almost being repeated for, um, or regurgitate it for amateur athletes that just don't have the time to do that, or don't have the physical ability to do half those things or the need. Yeah. And I thought, well, let's push rugby muscle and really see what we can do here. Um, and since then with that was, that would have been 2015 ish. Like we really first diagram of that, uh, has been tricking along in the background. Cause I've just, cause I've been working alongside a personal training business at the same time. And then a couple, maybe three years ago now I went full time with it and have, uh, yeah, kept pushing. It, kept pushing the podcast. Um, I've just been enjoying working with like, not a great deal of clients, but just enough that I can always, um, Give them as not enough quality advice and like build personal relationships and help them progress. Yeah. No, that sounds cool. Glad you touched on that. Cause that's kind of a mistake we, we made, um, you know, she started out with our Renegade, you know, we, we started cause we wanted to deliver, you know, really good content and, and we we've kind of made mistakes as players ourselves. Um, so we wanted to kind of prevent that, you know, amateur players making those. And we, we thought by doing, by delivering or explain what we're doing with pro athletes that would help them. But yeah, the, one of the first things we learned was, yeah, they don't have access to the facilities. They don't have the time, um, you know, resources and that type of thing. So we really had to kind of boil it down to what, what really works and what can actually be applied by them. So it's, it's cool that you, you sort of picked up on the same thing, I guess. Yeah. A hundred percent like the most simple things, like most gyms don't have sleds or we're starting to get more and more. Yeah, like bond plates, but when I first started, like we're not dealing with any of that stuff. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And like, we, we did a lot of stuff and it's still, there's people out there interested in, I guess, SNC coaches, um, read a book. Like we do stuff by velocity based training and all that sort of stuff. Um, and data and things and yeah, the Amtrak doesn't have access to that and maybe some aren't first, but they want to know what will improve that performance. And that's what we've kind of had to pivot and twist in that way. Kind of on the right line of the question we always ask, all the guests on the podcast is, is what you think the biggest mistake will be players make when it comes to strengthening. Do I have to pick one? Um, yeah, I could do top, top 20. Uh, the number one kind of is the root of everything is like going in without a plan. And I think you could say whether that's going into the gym and money at any given day or start in any given week, or even like in general, looking at what you actually want to achieve from the gym. Like I think, I think we think, oh, I want to be a better rugby player. That's it? But there's so many different ways that you can accomplish being a better rugby player. You can get stronger, you can get more explosive, you can get fitter, you know, you can like some people can lose weight, including losing muscle, and that might actually make them a better player. But until you take the time to really think about what it means to you, like anything works and nothing works all at the same time. So none of the other mistakes, I guess, really matter, unless you figuring out what you want to achieve. What your plan is to achieve it. Yeah, definitely. And that's, again, that's what we kind of tried to pivot to, to be able to help people figure that out for themselves. Um, and like you mentioned, men's fitness early, earlier, and a lot of times that's, that's where people get information and, and I've seen in the past, they'll show a rugby players program and you're like, there's no way either. There's no way a rugby players doing that program. Or it's just some like something that isn't applicable at all. It's applicable to that road player for a certain reason, because they've got a long train history. So you're average or average amateur rugby player, wouldn't be able to follow that program to get the same results. So yeah, coming from what is ideal for them. And, and like I said, the main thing is the reason they're doing it is to improve their own performance. And sometimes that gets lost and they follow whatever program I've seen on Instagram or whatever. So, yeah. Great point. Did you have any more, you wanted to bring up? I think though, just along those lines, People don't know where to start because of, because of that lack of a goal, almost like, you know, and so we all do it, right? Like it w if we don't know what we're supposed, like what we're trying to achieve, we just copy what everyone else is doing. But there's so many different goals. Like you said, like when men's fitness show, like rugby player start, or even like on the YouTubes with the, um, when England posts the gym sessions and stuff, like, that's just a tiny snippet. Like you have no idea of the context of, of what they're trying to achieve by doing it. And it looks cool. And I did. Yeah. But when I first started, I remember like, it's, you know, look at it, the video now. And it's like the most pixelated video and his bar Calaharee doing like, uh, these are like 60 kilos or something and he's doing pull ups. I was like, cool. I've got to do weighted pull ups. And I'm like, why am I following this guy? It doesn't make any sense, but you have no, you have no, like you don't have really have anything else to go on. And it's what I found. I don't know if you have experienced the same, it's very difficult to give because there's so many ways to solve the problem of being a better rubber plan. There's so many different like circumstances that people have with their lives. It's really difficult to give black and white answers because like, I could say anything can work or also nothing can work. And, um, yeah, I do sometimes struggling. It feels like you're being a Dick when they're like, oh, you know, do I need to do front squats or backs? What's like, I've got this question. Like yesterday. I'm like that. That's not, that's not a question really. So, yeah, I'd be interested. How, how, how would you go about dealing with that? What would you, would you kind of say, this is the question you should be asking, Jamie, are you asking me if you should do front squats back squats? Um, we all know this because sometimes if you, you know, people like say, people want that black and white answer, so how, how do you kind of reframe it to kind of get the message across the, and so it is like, well, the answer to that question would be like both work, right? It depends, like depends on the exact phase and what you want achieve backs that you would give the examples, I guess, of what. Solutions, I guess to these movements are right. Or these what jobs these tools are good at. And then it's up to the person asking the question to figure out what the solution they need. So like, yeah. And every movement, every exercise, and it gets even difficult with like, when you're talking about exercises. Cause the back squat for 20 reps can be very different to a, like a one rep max back squat. So, you know, and it gets, and the more you do this and I'm sure you experienced the same thing, the more skin in the game you get, you get like, you start everything you end up being like completely abstract. And that just is difficult because people listen to that. They don't want that. They want some sort of idea. So I would just say, okay, if you want, if you want to, you know, both can work. If you're looking for hypertrophy, both can work problems with front squats is you're going to run into is that your core is going to generally fatigue. Um, if you're going high reps and that ends up being a limit fact. You know, do you want hyper, like, is your, is that the goal of your front squat? Probably not. So then we probably want to look at back squat, but then maybe even if you don't technically backs, what, well, it might even not have a good one. Maybe we're looking at a leg press or, or whatever, you know, and again, it's like, the guy just wants a simple answer will tell me, is it front of OPEC sports? Like he just doesn't like you can't. And like, maybe like, and I think this is why I'm sure you think this when you're doing like your, your social media stuff. Like I could have a hundred thousand followers by now. If I'd have put, if my sole aim of my content was to look cool and do sort of funky, uh, Joel, Vanessa exercises or whatever they look different. Right. But they ain't helping anyone. And at the end of the day, like I want to look back on my business and the train that I do and the relationships I build and like have that all be genuine, you know? No, definitely. I think, I think it's interesting that the example you brought was the front squat back to what, because that is a common one. People, um, or players, I guess get caught up on the minutia of exercises. When I guess what I'd say to them is, well, why, why do you want to know what, what you're trying to get out of it? Because that it takes which one you use to a certain degree. Um, I mean like Dan, John, as you say, you know, the answer to every SNC question is it depends, isn't it like, there's so many things going into it, but yeah, if you can relate it back to why you're doing it, that helps you kind of formulate an answer and, or helps even helps them formulate an answer, I guess. Um, but yeah, I mean, so we've talked about exercise selection. This is one of my, my boat basis is kind of sports specific exercises and train on that. And mostly athletes. We, we work with that, that, I mean, there's, there's a debate of whether you use them with, you know, elite level players, but, um, with our guys is sticking to those basics. Uh, what, what's your opinion. Yeah. So you might as well. Yeah, definitely like again, we're two guys that own businesses that are dealing with at no gym programs for rugby players. Like if there was some people, if there were people that you were listened to, to tell you about the importance of functional, uh, rugby, specific exercises that would boost your performance, like we would be telling you that's what to do. Right. We're not like, it just isn't, it's a fantasy because you, you get your specific work of rugby when you're doing your rugby. Yeah. Like that, doesn't like, it definitely does annoy me. And what I found, I don't know if you've found this as well when, when we had the long breaks for COVID, like I had so many of my guys. W all of them actually, to be honest, come back like so much fitter because we got time to really develop their energy systems, as opposed to constantly like when you're doing rugby and when you're doing even, you know, if it's a Tuesday, Thursday night for, for training for a team or any night or any training session, like a lot of times that that's almost like a test, it's not a training session. Every training session is a test. Like you're auditioning to start on the weekend and you go full intensity. And so you're, you're, you're really pushing yourself. You're not spending your time training. You're not really developing your energy system. You're just working as hard as you can. Yeah. Whereas that's not what, that's not the stimulus. You need to really develop a strong aerobic system, which supports everything else. And obviously you're a lack to, uh, ATB BC system as well. Like that doesn't, you don't develop that you, you just do what you can do, same, same thing. Like you wouldn't just play games of rugby to develop your past. You would break down different parts in droves. So you, you know, you use your sport as a sport, but then you take a step back and develop over the physical qualities or skill qualities like separately. But yeah. So to answer your question, To Jim's stuff, you know, like, and have that gym stuff prepare you better to be on the rugby field. You don't want to do you don't want your gym to look like rugby? Yeah, no, definitely. No. You touched on two really nice things and it's probably going to be the call it the big mistakes podcast episode special you you've touched on too, that we see that one was like you said about, you know, um, rugby training. It kind of turned into a test and maximums. So we, we tend to see boys just work too hard. Like you mentioned ADP PC system. You need to be recovered for that. And, um, we had a great gas, blah, blah, blah, back from, uh, Ryan Gidney, where you're talking about how people go and do a speed session and rugby players, you know, weekly. There's a lot with that. They'll turn it into conditioning session. Cause it can't be rested in minutes and it's just, you know, it's in terms of insurance, do you see that? Is that, is that what you're talking about? Speed. The amount of people that want to work on speed, but don't actually want to work on speed. They say they want to work on speed, but they also want to be tired or they want to do it with like a really heavy sled or whatever it is. Yeah. A hundred percent speed. It's like, it's, it's really easy to train, but people, people miss it so much because they, they try and make themselves tired. And then it's, you know, anything less than like they say 90% I'd go even higher, like 95%. Like I want to be fresh when I'm doing my speed work. Cause that's again, you're trying to develop that quality. Did you like, do you find it hard when you're in your professional environment to get the time to have guys that are fresh enough to do your speed work? Yes. That's what I'd say in the professional environment. It's it is the time is the time constraint is the issue. I mean, there's still, there's still that, you know, the, uh, The players would still struggle with having rest, but we just don't have the time. So it's those those little bit dripped in when we can get them. Um, kind of interesting. I see it like, uh, you have to be like a hammock, a rest sandwich before and after Speedway. Right? Like there's no point when you can't do speed work, if you're already going into it. It's fine. Yeah. And then you want to give yourself a little bit of time so that you don't end up putting the hammy or doing something afterwards as well. Yeah. Yeah. So the way I do it, as I try and get it into, into warmups, some sort of reactive agility, um, and some acceleration work usually, and then it's with, you know, players who don't make the 23 for match day, then we'll get top-ups, you know, around that. But yeah, that, that's one of the challenges. Um, but that has helped me then work with AMA trustees to realize as well that we can fit in those little bits. And it's just kind of educating them when they can do it. Yeah. I don't know. That's all my guess. Like I'm a triathlete. So you, if you didn't have a payment program, probably because they've already got some level of speed to them, I probably have a decent level of natural ability. Whereas like you get some people on the average just slow as shit. Cause they've never, they've never learned how to run a sprint. And so just doing that for a couple months, all of a sudden, like I've about a few guys that have been flankers or been some off and then they've moved out to the wing just because I've got speed, like into their thirties as well. They've got thought faster than that because you haven't ever trained it. So you're brand new at this. Yeah, no, that's cool. I think, yeah. Speed. Speed is nice. Yeah. I like the non 23 years old doing it or on the game date. Um, I think that's something that I like to use is if, if I do have to work it or if I have to, I think the day before. Um, is also quite a nice little opportunity window for a lot of guys. Cause you're getting, you're trying to leave yourself being fresh, to be fresh for a game. Yeah. And so I feel doing that like that that day before is a nice window where you're already pretty fresh. And if you've been a speed session, it's, you're not going to pause it and Fitzy for it to really affect you. Yeah. That's a really good thought that because I guess mentally as well, it's easier for them to go along with it. I'll have rest. So I'm fresh because they're thinking about the game as well. So yeah. And then the other thing you touched on earlier was kind of just doing, doing too much, essentially trying to, trying to train every physical quality because that's one of the challenges of being SNC and rugby is you've got to have good levels of all them all. You've got to train six, 10. So how do you, how do you get around. Whether it's kind of covering everything off or focusing on, on, you know, that one individual quality that will get the, get them the best results. It's a bit of both. So it's, it's like, I think to, so to maintain any physical qualities, it's like what 20, you need like 20%, if that, of the volume that it is to develop it. So. Well, most people do is good. Cause they're trying to everything everything's about that. Say we've got that 20% is to maintain. They'll push that to about 66. That's not enough to actually get any development in all these different areas, but it's a lot more than they need to maintain. So we pull back on everything that, you know, again, this comes back to having a plan that happens, some goals I will get back to. Okay. What, what are we looking to develop? Um, which we can, we can leave and talk to him in the house to figure that out. Um, but everything, when we, and we pick two or three things, um, of most, so I live at that speed, whether that's a strength, power, uh, aerobic, whatever it is. Um, and we, we dot all those things up to 100% and then everything else gets left back on 20. If we don't have the time to develop three different things. Who was soft spoken so much time. we'll be really surprised at how easy that is. Once you dial that back. And once you realize that you're not going to lose out on those areas, that you're only maintained in a 20% rate, like just make so much, it'd be it like it frees up so much time and also like mental, there's like a level of anxiety that, I mean, I used to get it. I'm sure you, you do the same thing as a coach and as a planner, like crap, I'm not doing enough. I need to do more like w like, like the worst feeling in the world for rubber player to lose the game and then go off crap. That's because we didn't try hard enough this week in training, or we didn't push us out or whatever. Everyone's afraid of that fear. So they default to doing way too much. So, you know, this could just be an hour long, so plugs, you know, the importance of a coach or some sort of level of accountability. But once you've got someone in your corner that knows what they're doing, in another sense, it's a process you're allowing, you know, you've given that permission to pull back on everything because you've got that all those one or two areas that you really are focused in and you will see that defendant, but you will like, there's another way you want it. And if you've done, then that cultural change, change your approach. I mean, it's still, even if you don't like that, I'm still not getting it worst. Yeah, I think you're right about the saying it's like a bit of a blog for a coach, but that's a lot of what we've ended up doing with am attracts fees is, is kind of guidance about kind of, you know, even when, you know, when there's injuries or when there's, um, you know, The match day changes from Friday and how to tweak their training week. It's just having someone that point of contact to then, you know, like answer those questions they have. Um, and, and that's a massive thing. If you haven't got anyone, then a lot of times you see people just go and do nothing or the worst thing you weren't. Um, but, um, and the other thing in answering that question, you, you start with saying it's a bit of both and that's kind of what I've done over the years. Well, I, um, I learned, um, I interned under someone who did a lot of block periodization and saw really good results with that. And then, uh, later on, I worked with someone who trained everything concurrently and had good results with that. And now it's kind of a hybrid of that. And I guess it's what you say is every everything is present, but one or two things, um, are really emphasized. And that's what you're trying to get your adaptations to. Um, and if those things everything's covered, some of that will be in the rugby training. So you, you know, if you know, you get subsequent recurrence out of an outlet, if you're running around for two, three hours a week. Um, so that's my kind of. Philosophy on that. Um, a lot of it's covered in the game as well, right? Like there's no, there's no trainers. It's not perfect, but that's a hell of a lot of the stimulus you'll get in a one day. Um, and it's the most specific one, isn't it know. And that's the one thing I think albatrosses don't take into account that, you know, that counts as a training session essentially. Um, um, yeah. I remember when I was playing well, it's like a 17 and I'll find that some low level, what sort of gym off there again? He was like, okay, I remember that. It just blew my mind at the time, obviously. Cause I was already like in a performance mindset that sort of opened me up to the. No I've known similar players. They punish themselves for bad game, go out and play. just digging into recovery is gun. Cause that's, that's the way I try and explain it to my athletes is you've only got so much amount of energy to, to recover and adapt. So if you're trying to do, you know, like I said, the 60% of everything, you're just going to either overtrain or just not be able to recover and adapt. So you're not actually getting better. Whereas if you've got that 20%, you know, keep everything ticking over and then a hundred percent, those two or three things, that's, that's how you've got the energy to adapt to those. And I think that's where setting a goal. Those was like, I would've been like so important because you, so like if you setting your goals is one thing to set new goals. So like a year from now, like, you know, you want to improve at eight different areas. Well, if you give yourself two years to do that, then you don't have to worry about doing ever fit in full weeks. Like, because that's just not going to happen as well. Like, and if it like, say, if it was, I'd say, if you've got, if you spent four weeks and all of a sudden you gained three pounds of muscle, you got fit, you got stronger. Uh, well, so you got more explosive. You you're, Jillian came along, like you improve that, all of these areas, like, do you think that's just going to keep happening because if it did and you'd just, you'd be the world's best player. Yeah, no, it doesn't work like that. It ha you have to take your time. People, people want to stay in that. And they really know that like consciously, if they take the time to take a step back and think about where they want to be. But most people don't like, they just want to get everything in four weeks. And then just, I dunno, like do nothing because they've already reached a call. Like I call it on so far. Um, within this, like, you'd have to think. Long-term like, I can't really relate to why people do that. Like why they panic and shit set each short-term goals. And then cause inevitably like it comes down to consistency as well. So they, they, they put unrealistic, uh, workload on themselves. And then like inevitably for professionals, it might be, cause they hurt themselves like a fun house. It's probably just going to be either way that waste time. suck it up. And then so CJ Mike's, Mike's just dip Tyler, but yeah, that's like a bit better. Hold on. We back in. Perfect. Perfect. Okay. Sweet. Where are we? Yeah, so your, so what happens is that, you know, they, they, they set themselves. Because they, because they're setting themselves on such a short-term mindset, they try and do everything. And because they never really fail that, then just exacerbates that short-term mindset because they're trying to make up for lost time. And you're never gonna, you're never gonna make it up. Like, you've just got to accept that. Like you say, you've only got a certain amount of recovery in you, so take what you can and be okay with improving the other staff maybe next month or the month after that or whatever, or maybe you don't even need to improve your fitness, or maybe you don't need to get stronger. Like may, like this is, this is a concept that is foreign to a lot of people, particularly those that are looking at, uh, how to be a better rugby player in the. Like, you must have tend to get it. You get people that are already squatting 220 kilos. And they're like, okay, how can I improve my score? And you're like, why do you need to improve your score? You're already really strong. Do you get, do you get that? Yeah, definitely. Um, and that's one of the first thing. Like we try and say where they are on, on the sort of continuum in terms of what they need to work on. Um, like the way I always kind of explain it, go, well, if getting stronger, it will make you a bad rugby player. Then all the best rugby players will be powerless. And that's, that's not the case. Um, power, like what differentiates the top players is that explosive parents bead, obviously that strength is part of it, but once you got to a certain level and I'm sure you, this is what you communicate with your athletes. Well, I want you to get a certain level. Yeah. Happy for it to increase, but we're not gonna spend training sort of energy to, to improve it. If it improves via doing, you know yeah. Explosive neural stuff, then, then great. But, um, um, certainly maintain it, but getting more explosive and, and faster is what's going to really differentiate you from your position. Yeah. People don't want to hear that because they do up that strength over a long period of time or, or whatever it is. Maybe they're just talented, but like, you know that they like to train what they're already good at and they don't like to train. Well, they're not good at. Which then again makes that problem even bigger because then it's like, okay, what do I want to do? All right. I'm going to do squats because I don't really want to be here anyway. We're already really good at squats or you have, you have your runners as well. Okay. I'll just go out and do, uh, or maybe it's like a real fit person that wants to just do circuit training or whatever it is. Like they don't want to sit to stand around and rest for three minutes in between sets of heavy work. But at the end of the day, like rugby, what makes rugby like a really cool sport is that you, you have to be a little bit of everything. You can't just be really strong. You have to be fit like you, or you can't just be really fit. You have to like, it's a physical game. You have to be ready for contact. So I think that's what makes it a cool problem. And that's what attracts people, especially, uh, like people to enjoy the gym too rugby is that challenge. But then you have to come at it from the complete opposite side as to, as to how you approach the sport in the first place. And I mean, rugby has always been good. It's had that kind of gym culture, which is so exam, but it can obviously go too far the other way. And, and even in like at the pro level, in terms of the way SNC coaches have sort of, or the industry has developed, rugby has always kind of taken it on board quite quickly. It's the kind of early adopter which had been still very. Yeah, extremely young. Um, and you kind of saw these phase of like power lifting coach would come in and then there'd be that sort of emphasis in the training. Then it'd be weightlifters and even kind of CrossFit, you know, there's been that sort of period. And what you see now more and more is getting bad and bad is that it's more whatever works to improve the rugby performance. Not, not like, oh, I used to be a part of, and coach I'll I'll use these exercises. There's kind of elements of them all, but it's again, going back to what you said at the start is it's with the goal in mind of improving performance, that's it? Cause it's a tough one. Like we said, said like rugby players want to work hard, but it's just harnessing that and using it, make sure they actually get what they want from it because the speed train have been the classic example. Like, sorry. I just think it's, it's also like, it gets hard. It gets really hard because it's also really abstract as far as. Uh, we might be talking a little bit too abstract, but like in terms of becoming a better rugby player, because you've got so much options. Yeah. It gets, it becomes so hard to answer that question of like, what, what exactly do you need to do? But then it also becomes like, if you, if you have a good experience with a CrossFit CrossFit coach, or if you have a good experience with someone from another school that that could be that, uh, power lifters influence, but it also gets to be that you're just dealing with someone really talented. And also it could just be that you had a really lucky game. Like it's really hard to predict actually, like what, um, what constitutes be like what, what success is particularly, it must be even harder when you're working with a team because. Like you've also got what, 20 other different coaches or whatever. They've got their influence on the game and they want to, you know, and everyone's sort of vying for, okay, well, this vine for their own time and prioritization as to where the players are spending that time, deciding what, what caused a win and what caused or what caused the loss? It's like, oh, Um, I've been there when, you know, the breakfast before a game was the reason we lost. So it's so difficult in terms of like the, the physical approach or the way, you know, um, programming from it, the way we try and do it is we look at so a basic performance profile of an athlete and, and there's kind of, um, kind of got a pyramid version of it. Where at the bottom is body composition. Then we've got max strength, then we've got power, then we've got repeatability. And then at top speed, and basically where we say, if, if you're, if you're not ticking the box for body composition, right at the bottom, if you focus on improving your body composition, all the other ones would improve as well. Because yeah, if you increase your muscle mass, you're going to get stronger. And, and let's be honest, you have to use strength training to do that. So you're going to get strong if you get lean and you're going to be lighter, so you can be able to jump higher you to be able to run faster. Um, and you'll be fitter cause you CA you know, you're not carrying. Yeah, I haven't many kgs access. And then once you've got that ticked off, then you can focus on your max drags and get that to the standard where we think you work on power. And that's the way we kind of do it because that hopefully that sells to the athlete that is specific to them. And it's still, even if it's, you know, more general training, if they're at the body comp phase, um, it's still gonna improve that performance. And it's kind of designed to do that. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. I have a pyramid as well. Fitness professionals love pyramids, man. That is the there's so many. I think I stole the concept, but I mean, because it's such a good concept because it does work. I have, uh, aerobic base, uh, and then yeah. Body composition and move and quality at the bottom. So I think all of those three things. Yeah. Like you say, if you improve that stuff at the base, it's probably going to trickle up, but stuff at the top of the pyramid, like wherever that's your, you know, your speed work or you're out in and out strength work or whatever that doesn't necessarily trickle down. Yeah. And I think, yeah, yeah. That's the only difference is there is I'd say is I have the, uh, The movement quite, I think, but then again, it becomes really hard to quantify, like what moving better is. Um, but, but I think if people will know what it is when I see it, right. If you're working on agility, but you're, you know, you're, you're planning on your foot really heavily and you're you're, or you're, you're trying to drive off the inside for, or your foot's not making poor contact with the ground. Like instantly you can't have know that should, that doesn't, it doesn't look right. Um, or if you're squatting, you know, your heels are coming up, your whatever it is, and your knees are caving in. Like, that's just like, there's no point why can't I have strength if you can't move properly. Right. So, um, but then at the same time, you buy by fixing that stuff and whatever it is at the base of your pyramid, it's the same, same theory. It does help everything else. But it also, it takes a bit of time to adjust to which I think sometimes people don't like, yeah, Like particularly, I I'm quite a fan of doing zone to work if people have the time to do it, because it doesn't eat into fatigue and whatever, but it sucks because you people want to like a lot of, especially rubber plants they want, as you said, they want to work hard. They're like how this sucks. I'm like, like I do it. And you know, you're having to walk up Hills and it's like, yeah, but you're developing the qualities that you want to. It's the same thing. Like you don't just do a one rep max set repeatedly, or even just a couple of times to develop a hypertrophy. Like you've got to give yourself that volume and it's hard. And it wa it wa it was a lot harder for me to convince people years ago, but now I'm so convinced it works. Like I've got, like, at this point, you know, hundreds of people that have done it that have. Been through that. Like, I'm not sure if it's actually going to make me play better. I'm not working hard enough then played and gone. Holy shit. Like, I feel so much more comfortable when I'm playing like this guys swear. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So to be fair, that wasn't me swearing. That was someone reporting back to me, but they, you know, you get so much, they just, you, you, you, and it's, you know, when you feel it and that's, I think that's what I enjoy about working with like, uh, and I've, I've, I've worked with a number of professionals as well, but like, that's what I get with working with people. One-on-one I, I don't like they, they can just trust me and it's. Yeah. And it's a lot easier than having to get a buy-in from a whole team, um, to follow through and they can also then report back. Okay. I felt better when I played that game. Whereas you can have 15 players that all feel really good. I feel like they're playing their best, but still lose and still get thumped know. And you just wouldn't know. Whereas if you're, if you're comparing your own performance, you, you should be able to know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even if you're definitely. Yeah, yeah, definitely. No. Great. And also a lot of what we've talked about is kind of the psychology of it. Isn't it like we, we talk about, um, you know, all the different training techniques and how we program and profile and things like that, but it brings back to, you know, the psychology. It sounds like you've got good, good handle on that. And you build a good rapport with your athletes. That's really cool. Any, any other big mistakes that you, that you want to one event about? I think, I think what we've, we've said training too hard because that's, that used to be my number one. It probably still is. It's like training the aerobic system. Like people don't. I understand that like, cause they, they want to work really hard and maybe even they don't have the time. So, you know, they'll do two batters or whatever. It is like real intense, but real short. And then they don't understand that why 30 minutes into a game they're feeling really tired, but then you say, well, what conditioning sessions have you done that prepared you to go for more than 30 minutes? And they haven't, um, that's one, but for me, if, if we're, if we're talking about the psychology, I think this would be a nice one is like being okay with like non perfect weeks. Like I think everyone is, and I don't know what I actually had done. I haven't got a clue what this is like at the professional level, but with everyone that I've worked with, like they've come from a previous experience of kind of like that. Trying to much full insure feeling guilty, et cetera. And they're so used to failing. They're so quick to sort of almost try and give up on themselves. I don't know if that is actually even more of a weakness, like giving themselves that easy out, say, oh, I, you say, oh, my game's moved to Friday. I guess I can't do anything this week. Like what? That doesn't make any sense, but people do that or they say, you know, that or that, or they, you know, are I can't go to the gym this week. I hurt my wrist. So you can't do anything now. I mean, injured or, uh, you know, or, you know, they, the gym's really busy or they have a really busy day at work on the Monday. So they've missed the gym and all of a sudden that week's been a failure. And again, what Domino's is still two for Tuesdays, I'm going to do that. And then all that does is make the, every subsequent week that much. Yeah. Whereas if you just be okay with minimal progress, but still progress again, it's so much easier than trying to make everything perfect and navigate and like never giving yourself any wiggle room to stick with a plan and succeed whilst things. Aren't perfect. Yeah. No, it's, I, I like the idea of like, uh, like, uh, like punch clock workouts that, you know, it's not necessarily going to, you know, Create a massive stimulus, but is just getting the work in. And that, that's why, like you say about our com fit session. In some plan on Fridays, there is a way to train and to fit something it's always better to do something, nothing, but also you're not, not every session you're expecting to get PB. Like that's, like you said, if we got PBS every session, we'd all be, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger and stuff. So yeah, it's, it's knowing that it's, it's that cumulative thing over the, over the weeks, months and years, that builds up those, those, those adaptations. Um, and, and we don't have to get a PB. We don't have to completely like go back to the training too hard saying we don't have to smash ourselves every workout. Um, it's, it's a bit of a kind of Instagram meme is like, you know, have a hundred sessions, like 50 will be average, 25 will be terrible and maybe 10 will be like, awesome. But that's what it is essentially, you know, there's only a percentage of them were. Feel real good and get, especially playing rugby. Cause you know, different, different teams, different opposition, different styles of game, different weather conditions. Like you'll come in on a Monday and you, you know, you're not gonna, you're not gonna feel as good as you know, the week before when you, you know, it was, it was dry weather. It was an easy team. You just want to drive in for fun. Um, and, and even the psychological side of it has got to be taken. So that's one thing you see in, in the pro environment is you have a big word and everyone's, you know, cocky feeling fit and amazing and can lift really well. And that, you know, the weeks. When you've had a few bucks back losses, it's, it's really hard to get that kind of, you know, just that mental arisal to, uh, well, I remember speaking to the kid and he said the same. He said he was, uh, when he, the best score he'd ever seen on the, you know, the pre training question as was the day after that they be a comment, but who they beat, but they beat someone to get to the rugby world cup final and Maradona was in their pine with them. But then obviously, you know, they they'd have been out drinking. They had a roof tough physical game, but the next day they felt physically the best they felt like ever according to, you know, it's a good sort of questionnaire that simply again, you say buzzing off that big word. Definitely. I mean, and that also shows that you can't, you can't always take how you, one kind of a mistake we see, sometimes it is like, play, just go how I feel would dictate what I do. And it's not always true. Cause sometimes you feel like it's kind of passing. I must be, I'm not sore. I can try and find, but has your nervous system become, you know, um, is that something you see? Um, I dunno, not too common because I think we don't have the high of, uh, I don't, I haven't dealt with any players that have had the high of pine with Maradona, but also just in general, I think I, I do, but I never really turned the dial up to 10 with the vast majority of the training that we're doing, unless we're really preparing for it. Um, just because I want to. I want to always leave room until we absolutely know for certain, I always want to leave room to keep improving next week. Um, and that might hold me back in weeks. 1, 2, 3, 4, the, you know, however long we were running this program for. But I do think long-term, it just makes sense because yeah, yeah, maybe I'm not, maybe I could have improved of week two or week three by extra five, 2.5%, 5%. But the risk of that actually completely derailed and everything is two is bigger than that. 2.5%. And we're going to get to that improvement within the weeks to come anyway, if we stay consistent, um, the only time you would take that as if you were on an absolute massive time crunch and like, then you had to do it otherwise, uh, more, more often than not. It's the opposite. What I found is. It like work stress really does make me want to pull back. Yeah. Um, no matter what, even if they say they're feeling good, if they're having like intensive weeks of work, uh, more often than not actually, like, if I know this someone's got a heavy workload or, uh, something going on with their family or whatever, like there's a good chance. We'll just de-load and I'm happy to de-load for even a couple of weeks because running cause the damage of running into the ground and the cycle that will set someone on to just, it's not worth it. And if you're, even if you're, de-loading like, we know how, like, if we're doing it for the mental benefits, like we can do enough so that you feel good. Um, if we're doing, and again, if we can don't de-load and do zone to work, so we can still really develop the aerobic system and we can still get better, but we're just taken away from all of that volume, because I think this is probably, I was going to ask you what you found the biggest differences between working with athletes and. Uh, amateurs and obviously the biggest one for me, or for what the general people would imagine is, is that it's not just time. It's like the stress, you know, you don't just have that. You could even like, even if you could work around the amount or you could figure out a way to train the same as a, uh, uh, the exact same. In fact, I did a video on this. There was a, there's a, there's a really popular video on YouTube. I think it's, uh, some guy for, for, uh, a Welsh newspaper. I am trained like a rugby player and he was going to do it for six weeks, but he quit off the three because he, he, uh, he got, uh, you got hernia. It's the, honestly, it's the most ridiculous video because he, you know, he all he did. And actually it was a, it was all, it was like a supplement ad. Cause it was, you know, some supplement company funded this guy to do this, but he was training so much and he was, he was just burned himself into the ground and where professional rugby players go off. And for the most part play video games or just relax, you know, and then as they get older, maybe they start to do family life and develop business. But all of that is kind of a lot lower stress than. The work in a full-time job. Like this guy was still working his full-time job as a, um, as a writer, I'm assuming he got hernia. Cause he just had an absolute massive increase in their stress. It was like, you could have written about videos, hilarious, but you're right with pro athletes. The times you see when that type of thing really takes factors is with younger Loso academy players is when they're set in uni and having exams and things like that. And like premiership academies will actually ease back during those periods because they know that stress is going to spike and then the other one would play is if you ever want to be really good as an athlete, don't have kids because you know, newborn kids, cause it affects the sleep fracture recovery. Um, probably pretty stressed as well. Arguably the best is so, you know, it all adds up and it goes back to what you're saying before about adaptive energy. That, that stress is another thing, you know, that's another train of modality. Trying to recover from essentially the body treat stress, you know, the same, you know, as a, as a physical sort of threat. Um, and I did have another point on that as you were saying about, um, trying to, but it's gone that's is a good point. Oh yeah. I think it's about that. Um, that, uh, was it a journalist do, um, that, um, it kind of what we touched on before that they're then suddenly doing a training program for a professional rugby player when they haven't done the steps before, like I said, the iRobot based a hundred percent. Yeah. Quality and the bodycon no wonder they got a, honestly it was, it was hilarious. Um, but yeah, I think that would be the other difference. Right. So actually, this is your question, like the biggest difference between amateurs and professionals. Now that you've had enough experience working with both outside of the overall. General underlying stress that like how much your players are going to experience outside of rugby. Is there anything else that like, if you were an amateur player and you're looking at what the pros are doing and you're like, no, no, don't do this because of. Whatever reason. Yeah. I guess it comes down and you, you pretty much asked it in your previous bit. Cause you're saying, when you look at amateur players and professional players, the difference is the recovery. Um, so you could, you could do the same mat trainings though, because I think sometimes if you don't see what they're doing, you think they're training, you know, from nine to five constantly, we know. Fizzy, they couldn't recover from that. But like I say, they've got the time just, you know, on the console, go for coffee, meet with other rugby players. Talk about rugby. That's that's when they're recovering from it. Whereas the amateurs have to go to work, you know, even if it's not a physical job, you know, there's still stress on them. They don't have that time to recover. So it's usually got to dial back the intensity slightly and dial back the volume. Like you'd be surprised people can, but, and I'm sure you see a big build up to some pretty impressive stuff as, as amateurs. But initially you've got to start a little bit further back. Like I said, with that journalist, you, you've got to start, you know, on the ones and twos and build up to those, um, eights and nines and tens. And that makes sense. Sure. The other thing I was, I think probably could happen, and this is because I've not been exposed to too many different, um, environments, like where I'm experiencing like a full training week, um, outside of the ones that I've experienced as a player, like. I think the other thing that you'll find is I think amateurs have so much more time to still develop that base, whereas our professionals, because either because they put in the work or because they just have that much talent, they don't have to work on their, their, their base abilities. And so they will spend a lot more time. Like particularly when you look at like the stuff like the bosses, the most popular training stuff that gets put out is like, when it's the lions or when it's England ropy, like you're talking like the top, top, top percentage of not just athletes as far as genetics, but also where they are at, in their careers as well. Like they've already, they're at the top of the mountain. So there, or the pyramid, I guess they're at the top of they've reached the top. Right. And so they've, they all work in those tiny areas and also like. As far as a social media post or a, an interesting video, like that's the stuff that's going to have people watching it, I think is really cool. Like you're not going to share someone's, um, you know, 45 minutes of zone two on, on a, on a watt bike. Like, no one's going to, that's not going to make any cut of any video that's remotely interested, but that's probably, I would assume, I don't know, a bit too much, but that's probably what's going on as well. Yeah, no, definitely. Um, it's, like you said earlier, it's so hard to go. Even if you go and visit and talk to the, you know, the staff that you go and visit one of those, um, teams, and I've been fortunate enough to go and visit the imaging, the six nations and things, watch their training camps. And it's, um, it's so hard to judge just on that one thing, because like I said, it's, you know, it depends on their periodization. You know, how long they've had this group of athletes together, you know, over the years and. What, what we can to the, into the campaign they are and things like that, what games they've got coming up, uh, and, you know, the injury profile plays a sermon. And like I've seen some of those videos on YouTube where they've asked to see coach has gone in and criticized his top teams, but you don't know what, why they're doing that without knowing the kind of justification. And like, it goes back to, you know, the way I deal with questions about some things more wide, what, what is the approach? And, um, you know, there's, you know, tons of phases where it's, it's going to cap, but it's got to have the right the right reason. And so there's the judgment based on, on that. And at the end of the day, they're being judged solely pretty much on whether they win or lose on the weekend. Yeah. And so like, could they try and get that little extra mental edge or whatever it is that they're using versus trying to put a 0.001 extra percent on their physical abilities? Like, yeah. It is really difficult just to, to judge why. Yeah. And the success on it, you know, for sure. Uh, what about, um, like nutrition wise got up? I'll tell you one of my ones I see a lot, which really frustrates me is, is, um, sort of getting towards the end of the season, getting, getting into also in the Northern hemisphere again. So the end of the season, and, uh, it's getting to the summer and boys start like cutting out carbs from their diet because they're all I'm trying to try and get Lee. And you're like, well, yeah, but you've got important games coming up and, you know, hopefully cup finals and things like that when surely you want to be feeling that and that, but it's totally the other mindset. Is that anything you said or what your other nutritional ones? Yeah. Yeah. Like I wouldn't have thought this a while back a good few years back when, when I first started doing this, but under 18 is like a huge problem with that with amateur athletes as well. Like, you know, We live in a world where like, eating like shit is so, so, so easy. Like as soon as you decide that you're going to, your mentality has to change and really that's for the better anyway, for you as a, as a person. Like we shouldn't like, even if you, you have no interest in increasing your rugby performance or physical performance, like the Western diet is just terrible, like it's, but where it succeeds, is it super convenient and super easy to, to just get in actually super tasty. That would be the other benefit of it. Right. But the problem is, is like most people then think, okay, I'm going to be an athlete. I'm going to eat natural foods or whatever it is. And all of a sudden were. You know, as a, as a hundred kilo guy or an 80 kilo guy, even like 1800 calories of most, you know, and, and I think you'll never going to develop any, or you can develop performance with such little calories, but it's, it's like riding your bike with flat tires. It's so much more difficult. Um, and then what happens is because they're so used to under eating, like actually enough becomes a chore, um, because they're just, you know, eat and it's just a habit thing that people do we really think about having to games of having to eat. It's just a thing that they wait for. Their body tells them they're hungry and then they just jot something down. But it's just like, if you want to perform your best, you want to give yourself all the best fuel and all the best opportunities. Uh, adapt to the China and sameness, I'm performing your best when it comes to every single training session, I think. Yeah, you're right. Like under reading is huge. Um, you know, maybe under eating a protein, um, on the renal protein, protein goes both ways. Like if you're dealing with, um, people that I've read enough, men's fitness, that they'll just, they know the importance of protein so much, but they don't think about anything else. Yeah. Yeah. When you said sort of unwritten protein, I was going to say my experience with rugby players is there's usually quite clued on to protein cause like would have been overdone, but then everything else kind of goes out in the winter. Um, and then yeah, yeah. A lot of people that don't think about it naturally tend to Andre so they can go, they of like. He can wreck. It can go both ways, but if they're okay with that protein, they usually say missing out on everything else. Um, and I think. I think my bug bear on it is it is really easy once you get down to a routine. But like, if you, if you're just completely unaware of your routine, like, will you let it slip? And you just fall back into old habits, there's a good chance. Like, there's a reason that like nutrition and the fitness industry has just grown and grown and grown exponentially it's because people were just most for the most part eating junk and, uh, not moving enough. So if you could just do those things, like that's gonna make you a better human, which like, if we're looking at that would be, that'd be like the foundation of the base of the pyramid, right? Like just being a better performing human who's going to help you on the yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, an argument would be health should be the very bottom of that pyramid and there, which obviously nutrition so important for, but it's even got to the point where, you know, if, if someone eats like a healthy meal, someone goes, oh, what day are you on. Just seeing how, you know, it's not done. It's unfortunate. Like this is what I was done with the Western dive and terrible instantly. Like, uh, you have to in the supermarket in most restaurants, you're, you're immediately eliminating 70% of what's available instantly. Like you're not even comprehended, like, and I'm lucky that I can stop at this at 17 or whatever. That stuff is just that's you can have it as a red treat, but you know, that's a tree. Yeah. Right. It still blows my mind. And it may be somewhat, there are McDonald's listen, the students, I'm not trying to be elite, but it blows my mind that people would go and get a big Mac for lunch on a Tuesday. But that happens because the, the, the drive through at McDonald's on a Tuesday, it's like, there are lines outside on a Tuesday. It, it doesn't make sense to me. Um, and so once you wrap your head around that, you know, you, you you'll, you're constricted to which isn't really constricted itself, but we were in Sydney taking off, send that you spent a sense of stuff as many as standard, and you can have that stuff as a treat, and that's absolutely fine, but you acknowledge that as a tree. That makes a huge difference. Um, I'm actually a vegetarian. So when I, when I switched to becoming a vegetarian, it was actually kind of easy because I, I, uh, Just to make that change because I was already, uh, you know, I already had a good diet, um, and I just replaced most of my chicken with other stuff. And that was kind of it. Um, I think it's hard when you try and feel some level of social pressure, or just try to, you get food industry stuff just constantly ran down your throat, what you're supposed to do once you, once you understand that, I think eating like an athlete can be and should be really easy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's a day that it's kind of, it's, it's more getting away from that kind of that pool from, you know, the media or whatever, or, you know, just that kind of consumer society. We've got all the nutritional side of it. It's crazy. Yeah. Um, one thing I was going to say as well, though, is you've said about how, um, your professional athletes. Have a lot more recovery and people will say, and you, this is more for the younger people, I think, but older, older athletes can forgive others too is like the younger people think, well that's because they've also got access to all these supplements, uh, like, and they, yes, they do. But how much of a difference do you think that really makes on their recovery? Oh, so you asked me. Yeah, well, you know, that's, if we're talking pyramids, that's, you know, the very, very top, isn't it. It's it's, they're, they're called supplements for a reason. They supplement to your actual nutrition. So. If you're not eating whole foods and in terms of nutrition thing, but just in terms of everything, you know, holistically looking at it, it's such a tiny percentage of, of the annotations are gap. Um, yeah. Supplements how, but they're not gonna, they're not gonna, you know, if you've got a terrible program and something, that's going to make it a good, you know, good response and you'd be surprised how little you actually need in terms of something like that. You know, there's only a few that have been shown to be effective and yeah. And then the boring ones that aren't really promoted as well. So again, I said another boring ones that aren't really promoted. Yeah, exactly. About branch chain amino acids, which are just in all pros. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I think supplements and just in general, like recovery, that would be, I would say that's another mistake that people would take rather than. And it goes back to what we've been taught about this whole time really is rather than doing too much, they look like they do too much. And then they look to add potentially more by saying, okay, I'm going to do recovery. Yeah. I still don't know what doing recovery looks like. Yeah. Obviously when I say, um, they have more recovery, I don't mean they're going into a pool and do you know, do necessarily, I mean, they're not training. Yeah. Whereas, you know, amateurs, well, I'm not sure. I know you're at work, which is stress, which is digging into your recovery, your, your energy that has essentially, so what did I say? Um, uh, so another, another question we always ask on a podcast and it'd be interesting to confirm you cause you know, slightly different sort of, uh, background as an STC coach. What, what advice would you give to an upcoming strength coach? Um, the best advice and the one that always keeps coming up. To me or the one I keep keep on relearning is like, just be a good person. Um, it sounds so cliche and I'm almost a little bit, I I'm almost annoyed at myself for saying that, but I'm not because it needs to be said, like, even if you look at the highest echelons of professional rugby, people are hired because they're good people and people enjoy that company. Um, like, yes, knowledge is a part of it, but like, um, uh, what's his name? Paul sturgeon. Dude. Like he, like, people love him and, you know, he could, he could be spouting up stuff. That's like 30 years old and being completely outdated and doesn't work. Not saying he does do that. Like he knows his stuff, but he gets, he goes on, uh, all the lions stores. He gets like the top invites because he's just a good dude and everyone loves him. Like in like a general, I, I know, I know too many coaches that like, are good people or actually, no, I know too many people that know a lot, but they don't like, they're not worried about personal skills. They're just worried about that knowledge. And like, I think. At the end of the day, if you're coaching people or coaching people. So that there's a big, like, it doesn't matter how much knowledge you've got, if you want to feel, or that balance of someone being on your team, like not literally being on your team, but being on your side and knowledge and what you've got to say and trust in you to do what you think is best, then it doesn't really matter. And that's probably why we have like so many, so much as far as like the S in the industry, because people still want to hear nonsense. And if you've got enough people that not necessarily, I wouldn't even say they're good people, but they're charismatic enough to put it across. Like people will laugh that up because this is, we live in a world in a capitalistic society. So if people want to buy nonsense, because it makes themselves feel better, there are charismatic enough people to sell them nonsense, you know, Yeah, no, definitely is great point. And I'm on a kind of sad note, but someone like, you know, like you mentioned, Paul, Steve black, who unfortunately passed away this week. Um, and just looking through the comments on, on, um, the posts on LinkedIn and it was like, this guy has touched a lot of people, you know, and, and that's, that's what you want to have, you have that effect on people. So it kinda got me thinking, crikey, what, what would people say about me? You know, you know it, you know, it's, but maybe that's a good way to start your career is, think about, think about that because then you'll kind of act in a way that's going to leave people have a good regard of you, you know? Yeah. I think the other thing, and this was probably in what I would, would be like after San Diego person is part of that is understanding that it's not, if you're a coach. It's not about you, it's never about like, it's not about you at all. And we're seeing this change particularly, like if you, if you follow NFN of the, uh, um, NCAA football, like American football is like the college strength, coaches becoming a bit of a meme. Um, and it's like, it's not good because like cope, like, and, and then just in general, like the coach's job is to facilitate like their existence is to facilitate the success of someone else. So it's good to know. People would, but like, even, even like Blackie, like, like people aren't coming and saying call that was great, that you were responsible for the success of, uh, whoever w we'll have appliers or webinar that, that same, well, good person that you, uh, I mean, like they say the same thing, and this is something that stuck with me about cirrhotics thugs was by, he knew the name of everyone that worked at old Trafford. He knew everyone on the staff at man man unite. And like you think this is probably getting the guy that was going to go down as one of the best coaches to have ever existed. He still took the time to be a really good person to everyone he could be. And that's something that I still, when I poked, when I do my roughing coat, they want to try and improve on that because I do think that that's that's and that's something that like, particularly in this Instagram age can be easily lost. If you, if you're a famous quote, unquote coach, like it's, it's not like you're you're if you're, if you're a really good coach, you're making everyone else look really good. And then by association, you can look good, but it's not about you. And if you understand that, then you'll have you have good success. And I think something like some of the names of his fan load, poor estrogen, Steve black, Players would play for, you know, they turn up, if you can, you know, if you can have that, that's, that's half the, one more than half the battle, you know? Yeah. Just to have that, where there's part of creating the environment. Uh, I was talking about the environment being so important from se SNC perspective. Um, and if you've got that where people want, you know, want to play, not, not that, that means you're special, but just you create that environment that they want to, they want to turn up and play. Um, and those, those three are definitely ones that kind of makes you think they, they had that. Yeah, definitely. Cool. Uh, so tell us a bit more about, uh, about rugby muscle and, um, and then sort of where people can sort of find out more about you getting they can follow the Instagram is, is being pushed a little bit. Um, at rugby muscle, YouTube is probably where you're going to get the best information from from me. So just again, rugby muscle, uh, on YouTube and we'll come up. Um, tons of playlists, tons of videos there. Um, again, not like the most popular, because, because, because we can't give black and white information cause we have to try and help people understand how to build out a program. Uh, I really try and put value into the YouTube videos. Um, and then some of the videos also make the podcast, so that's just rubbing muscle as well. Yeah. Cool. And just tell us a bit more about your program, what you, what you do. So, uh, we have, depending on when this goes out, we, we might have a new program coming out, but otherwise it's just a, and for the longest time, this is what I've done was just, um, one-on-one coaching because it's just such a good, it's just the best way to solve your problem as a player, even as an amateur, like to have someone in your corner. So you outsource all your thinking, but have everything done for you? Like I believe in it so much. I have a coach. Um, I think it's just the best service and then everything else would have taken away from it. But it got to the point where I did want to develop a lower, a little lower price point for those that really did kind of want coaching, but literally just couldn't afford it. Not couldn't afford it because they're spending money on three different calls or something, but actually couldn't afford it. Um, and so we, we, we created team Robbie muscle, um, which is just, uh, a program that is, it was apps, but the more I use different apps, the more they frustrate me. So now it's just a membership site with, um, a download, like each month they'll get a new program downloadable to a Google sheets account. Um, but that way it's the same sort of thing, but. Even though we spent this whole time saying that just generally being a better rugby player is hard to define as a goal. We try to tackle that as best we can. And because it's a membership site, we can also give you feedback as far as, um, like different circumstances, different goals and stuff, how to adapt the program. Cause it's done a good machine. Easy. Yeah, not sounds cool. Yeah. Like similar approach to us, we bought the part. The good thing is that they can communicate with us easily and it's troubleshooting those little things. Like giving them the program is one thing. But like I said, there's always those little things that come up where there's a little injury, um, you know, the change of, of, you know, having to change the chain of week and we can give them advice. And that is cool. And like I said, it's coaching is so important. Um, whether it's just, you know, save you a bit mental Ram for your own, for your own work or just setting you on the right direction for what's gonna work. Yeah, I think it's something that people miss and rugby as well. And obviously like, especially amateur rugby, because you've got one, maybe two coaches that you're dealing with, uh, like that, yes, they're your coach, but they're your team's coach. So their job is just to have the team win. And if that means not playing your tool, or if that means, you know, not even developing new at all, like that's, they're still doing that job. And that's like no hard feelings against them, but that's not benefiting you as a rugby player. So, um, that's why I think the coaching works quite well is because I've got that experience as well. So I've helped guys, um, like navigate, trying to change a club, um, navigate, getting back into rugby, et cetera, et cetera. There's so many different circumstances and that's. I do think that is. So you guys, what do you guys do as far as, uh, Robbie renegades concerned Jamie standards? The way of posting this on mine as well. So yeah, it's kind of polarized. We initially started out with a membership program, so that's kind of our. Flagship product. Um, and just over the years, we've we started doing a bit more, so some sort of more specific programs based on, you know, those individual goals, whether it's sort of, um, body composition or maximum strength, that type of thing. And we're planning to add more as we go through. And then just more, more, um, sort of one-to-one coaching, that's kind of progressing well kind of, because it's the way our careers have changed. I've got a bit more time now that can Bedford semipro so I can put more time into doing one-to-one coaching and I didn't want to do it when it, you know, I couldn't devote the time to the so that's, that's, that's better now and I can, I can devote more time. So that's cool. That must feel quite nice as well. Like dealing with people one-on-one and just the simplicity compared to having to get a whole squad of 30 lads and trying to eat them all in the same direction. Yeah. Cool mate. Um, TJ has been great. Great talking to you. Some, some great insights and it, yeah, it's been, you know, probably could have gone for another couple of hours. Yeah, we'll do it again, mate. Yeah, definitely. And, uh, we'll, we'll get Rob on onto your podcast as well. We can talk all about physio and injury prevention and then also talk to Nate. Thanks all the best for the future. Thank you.

TJ 1:15:46

All right. Hey, there's TJ, once again. Thank you for listening to that episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'm just here. One more time. I know you thought you were rid of me, but, uh, I've got some pretty cool that I want to send your way. I've tried to condense all the most important things that you need to make progress. The training, the mindset, the nutrition, everything you hear in these podcasts and more presented in a. Two week program called Robbie muscle kickoff through kickoff you'll have access to two weeks of emails delivered directly to your inbox. So it's a video's education and interaction and access to tools, strategies, tactics previously reserved only. Paying clients to join. Simply click the link in the description of this podcast, the one that says kickoff, or if you want to go old school and type it out, then crack on access it@roby-muscle.com forward slash kickoff. All one word she is for listening to podcasts. So you guys next time.